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What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

it needed a hollow, "pass the torch" story / mining the immense popularity of Shatner's Kirk just to get going.

That's one way of putting it. OTOH you can look at it as "This is the passing the torch story we were implicitly promised and there was no way we were going to get Shatner on television. (Oddly.)"

And then they botched it.

I think Generations is one of the better stories of the TNG movies except it needed another re-write to fix some gaping holes. It's also the first time I can think of where the writer's urge to "subvert audience expectations" really got in the way of telling the story in the first place. It's common place now. Maybe it always was and this just the first time that I noticed it. I mean, you can take that swing and sometimes make it work. But if it doesn't... Well, you get Generations and you screw up the time Kirk met Picard.

I think it's almost a great story for Picard, it's certainly a great performance for Stewart, and it's my favorite Sertis performance EVER. But you need to 1) Kill Rene in a very casual and offhanded way (it's very Alien^3) and 2) Picard's sudden need for a family comes out of nowhere. Even it's understandable one would expect the Nexus to say "Dude, this is a phase. Here is your REAL heart's desire. Oh, and you don't have to have a wife who kinda looks like Beverly. We're all grownups / supergalactic phenomena here." 3) You can't set up the Nexus as this amazing inescapable thing and then have your hero shrug it off in a scene. TWO of your heroes! "Wow, Guinan must have issues! You can almost see the cardboard here!" Kirk: "Let me tell you about the Dohlman of Elas. That was supposed to be a big deal too. Pfft."
 
I think TOS vs. TNG is a dead issue. So far in this century, TOS has been rebooted twice (Abrams Films & SNW) and TNG has been revived on TV (Picard). "TOS" or "TOS-like" is viable in both mediums. "TNG" or "TNG-like" looks like it's only viable in one.
 
I think TOS vs. TNG is a dead issue. So far in this century, TOS has been rebooted twice (Abrams Films & SNW) and TNG has been revived on TV (Picard). "TOS" or "TOS-like" is viable in both mediums. "TNG" or "TNG-like" looks like it's only viable in one.
I'd argue LD is also TNG-lite. And I'd even call SNW a hybrid.

But in any case, that situation doesn't arise form any quality intrinsic to either of those shows, it just a result of the current zeitgeist of rebooting stuff and returning to the first iteration of a franchise, for whatever reason.
 
I am forced to agree with TREK_GOD_1 about the TNG movies. There was not a hunger for TNG movies like there was for TOS movies. There was a decade gap between TOS and TMP. There wasn't even a half year gap between TNG and GENERATIONS. The phrase 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' works for a LOT of things.

I also agree with whoever said that TOS is more ingrained in pop culture than TNG. For lack of a better term, TOS is more basic than TNG... it's costumes, it's wardrobe, it's uniforms, it's aliens. Obviously it is due to the advancements of all of the above in technology and cost between the two shows, but there's something very appealing to a stripped down version of things.

TOS also had an advantage no other series had... for over a decade, it was the ONLY kid on the block. (TAS and the first 4 movies still only had that setting and characters.) Because it had no other STAR TREK to compete with for attention, it could ingrain itself more fully and deeply. It had ALL the attention.
 
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But in any case, that situation doesn't arise form any quality intrinsic to either of those shows, it just a result of the current zeitgeist of rebooting stuff and returning to the first iteration of a franchise, for whatever reason.
The shows are fine. TOS and TNG both work on TV, like I said. It's the movies where I think it looks like only one works. If the movies ever get out of the stalled limbo they're in, and if they were to look at rebooting TNG, it would be much more of a hurdle for them to figure out a winning formula there.
 
That's one way of putting it. OTOH you can look at it as "This is the passing the torch story we were implicitly promised and there was no way we were going to get Shatner on television. (Oddly.)"

And then they botched it.

I think Generations is one of the better stories of the TNG movies except it needed another re-write to fix some gaping holes. It's also the first time I can think of where the writer's urge to "subvert audience expectations" really got in the way of telling the story in the first place. It's common place now. Maybe it always was and this just the first time that I noticed it. I mean, you can take that swing and sometimes make it work. But if it doesn't... Well, you get Generations and you screw up the time Kirk met Picard.

I think it's almost a great story for Picard, it's certainly a great performance for Stewart, and it's my favorite Sertis performance EVER. But you need to 1) Kill Rene in a very casual and offhanded way (it's very Alien^3) and 2) Picard's sudden need for a family comes out of nowhere. Even it's understandable one would expect the Nexus to say "Dude, this is a phase. Here is your REAL heart's desire. Oh, and you don't have to have a wife who kinda looks like Beverly. We're all grownups / supergalactic phenomena here." 3) You can't set up the Nexus as this amazing inescapable thing and then have your hero shrug it off in a scene. TWO of your heroes! "Wow, Guinan must have issues! You can almost see the cardboard here!" Kirk: "Let me tell you about the Dohlman of Elas. That was supposed to be a big deal too. Pfft."

In other words, TNG had a decent series finale which--to anyone even casually--watching, realized that was meant to be the end. By rushing to make movies few were interested in seeing, TNG's series finale was rendered meaningless.

TOS movies were better than TNG movies.

TNG was a better TV series than TOS.

There.

That should solve it…

:shifty:

Nope. TOS is the franchise's lone jewel in the crown, but TNG is not much better than...

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:)
 
The shows are fine. TOS and TNG both work on TV, like I said. It's the movies where I think it looks like only one works. If the movies ever get out of the stalled limbo they're in, and if they were to look at rebooting TNG, it would be much more of a hurdle for them to figure out a winning formula there.

But again that's not something that has to do with TOS or TNG itself. The Kelvin films were just born out of that trend to reboot things, nothing else.
 
It occurs to me that we've only had four series finales so far... and they've followed a steady trend...

"All Good Things..." Outstanding, with an iconic ending shot.

"What you Leave Behind" Very Good, with an iconic ending shot.

"Endgame" Mediocre ("Timeless" and "Year of Hell" had similar premises and did the job way better), with an iconic ending shot.

"These Are the Voyages" Deplorable, but with an iconic ending shot.

But hey, if we judge all the series solely by their last 15 seconds, they're all amazing.
 
I'm one of the biggest boosters of ENT in these forums and even I would give The Rise of Skywalker a higher grade for coherence and enjoyment than I'd give "TATV..." :guffaw:
 
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