Script blunders!

[Mytran]

When was that graphic made, though? There's definitely at least one cutaway preceding it, the one on the bridge set engineering console and next to the turbolift.

1966, if this website's sources are correct
https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/uss-enterprise-space-cruiser.php
It would certainly have to after the Season One modifications were done to the bridge dome.

Seems like the only way to count 11 decks in the saucer is to include the caps to the bridge and lower sensor dome... Deck 5 might be one deck higher if going by TMOST diagram.

That is pretty much what @aridas sofia had to do with his highly detailed version of the cutaway:

 

[Phaser Two]

1966, if this website's sources are correct
https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/uss-enterprise-space-cruiser.php
It would certainly have to after the Season One modifications were done to the bridge dome.
That is pretty much what @aridas sofia had to do with his highly detailed version of the cutaway:

That diagram is fascinating. I'm guessing it is heavily TAS-influenced. The zoo, the different kinds of shuttles, etc. suggest that to me. I found engineering (primary hull!) and sickbay, I think. I'm still looking for a transporter room.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

That diagram is fascinating. I'm guessing it is heavily TAS-influenced. The zoo, the different kinds of shuttles, etc. suggest that to me. I found engineering (primary hull!) and sickbay, I think. I'm still looking for a transporter room.

This view should only show what passes through the center line of the ship, so transporter rooms might be out.

 

[blssdwlf]

That engine room in the primary hull doesn't account for the saucer undercut I suspect MJ's illustration had something else there instead of the engine room as drawn by aridas sofia.

EDIT: the undercut can be an issue depending on how shallow it is but the S2 engine room is taller than 2 decks making it too tall for that section of the saucer.

 

[BK613]

That engine room in the primary hull doesn't account for the saucer undercut I suspect MJ's illustration had something else there instead of the engine room as drawn by aridas sofia.

If you look closely, @aridas sofia did account for where the undercut curve traces through* that aft area and the engine room as drawn fits within it, at least from the side view.
Whether it would fit port-to-starboard is another matter but one must remember that the neck is also part of the area and the undercut doesn't exist where it is at.

*(look just under the chair in the engine room foyer)

 

[blssdwlf]

If you look closely, @aridas sofia did account for where the undercut curve traces through* that aft area and the engine room as drawn fits within it, at least from the side view.
Whether it would fit port-to-starboard is another matter but one must remember that the neck is also part of the area and the undercut doesn't exist where it is at.

*(look just under the chair in the engine room foyer)

I had to pull out my old files and yeah, I accounted for the undercut. @aridas sofia I think has a shallower undercut so he could squeeze in the engine room foyer but everything forward of that like the hallway would be in the undercut (even in his version).
But something I forgot (but is apparent to me now) is that the S2 engine room is too tall to fit in that section of the saucer. The whole ceiling is now outside the primary hull.

 

[Warped9]

Despite conflicting references I have long accepted that main engineering is in the secondary hull.

 

[BK613]

@blssdwlf I did say as drawn. It's clear that @aridas sofia didn't exactly match the set. He shortened the ceiling height of the foyer to the top of the panel and raised and reoriented the tube cathedral bottom to fit the exterior model.
Since it's you, I'm going to accept the ship size in your model and his drawing are the same.

 

[blssdwlf]

@blssdwlf I did say as drawn. It's clear that @aridas sofia didn't exactly match the set. He shortened the ceiling height of the foyer to the top of the panel and raised and reoriented the tube cathedral bottom to fit the exterior model.
Since it's you, I going to accept the ship size in your model and his drawing are the same.

Yeah, the ship model is scaled at 947' assuming that aridas was using that size. I should've clarified earlier and said that a screen-accurate model or drawn engine room wouldn't fit in that section.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Looking forward to seeing if there is a script dependency too. If it is a script blunder it would be from not explaining why Deck 5 was restored since Scotty's line about stuff shutdown "all over the ship" covers potentially any and all decks. IMHO.

Yes, I agree that the "all over the ship" line was included to cover a lot of random territory, however, my thinking is that if deck 5 was not intended to be mentioned at all, and since we did see Kirk using his quarters later in the episode, then there would be no reason to assume that deck 5 was originally intended to be one of the decks/systems shut down in the first place, and therefore no reason to speculate on whether the power was subsequently restored for that deck. in other words, as I said above, it would then make sense -story wise- that M5 never shut down power on deck 5 because, unlike decks 4 and 6 which are the other berth decks specifically called out, and for which there were no crew aboard to use, Kirk and his senior staff are aboard and probably would want to use their quarters -which in other episodes are established as deck 5- from time time during the mission.

Not sure. It is possible Sickbay was on Deck 7 in "The Ultimate Computer"?
But in "Elaan of Troyius" when Kirk takes Elaan to Sickbay he drops her off at Deck 5 which is how I remember it.

As far as Sickbay goes, "EOT" isn't very specific, because Kirk first tells Elaan to "go to sickbay" because "its the best protected part of the ship" but she doesn't comply, and then several minutes later -when the immediate threat seems to have abated a little -and Kirk feels he can leave the bridge- he then escorts Elaan into the turbolift and orders "deck 5" to the computer, but note he doesn't say "Sickbay -deck 5" so it's possible to surmise that due to the reduction in tension, that Kirk has changed his mind, and now feels that she will be safe enough in her (Uhura's) quarters, and his intent is to go there? However when Spock reports that the situation is heating up again, Kirk just drops Elaan off on deck 5 telling her to go to Sickbay on her own (by catching the next turbolift?), while he hurries back to the Bridge. Interpreted this way, the deck location is left ambiguous as to whether sickbay is on deck 5, or some other deck, such as deck 7.

Argh. I thought "Day of the Dove" established Sickbay on Deck 7. But now that I think about it, I believe "Mirror, Mirror" has a Deck 5 reference as well, so you're right. I wonder why the blueprints (as far as I know) put it on Deck 7.

The original source of the "Sickbay = the center of deck deck 7" association comes from "The Making of Star trek" which also posits an 11 deck saucer (for which there is plenty of corroboration from the episodes themselves) and as such, it would definitely qualify as "the best protected part of the ship", whereas a deck 5 location -in an 11 deck saucer- would not.

More likely the writers just counted the levels down from the Bridge to determine what was the largest (and therefore "main") deck...which was Deck 5.

Yes, I agree completely, it seems that throughout most of the series "deck 5" was thought of as the "main deck" on which was found Senior Officers Quarters, Sickbay, Botany Lab (?) Transporter, etc. In fact, deck 5 is mentioned more often than any other deck!

When was that graphic made, though? There's definitely at least one cutaway preceding it, the one on the bridge set engineering console and next to the turbolift.

Yes, that's part of the problem with interpreting this stuff. In both graphics and clues from dialog the ship went from ~540 ft long to ~947 ft long and possibly back again, before being reestablished at 947 ft again. And there were a succession of three story editors during the 1st season, each with their own ideas of how many decks were in the saucer, either 8 or 11, and at one point the writers guide even said there were 20 decks in the saucer. Because of this and other reasons, I tend to not put too much emphasis on the plethora of contradictory graphics, and stick with the onscreen dialog cross referenced with scripts whenever possible.

Deck 7 wouldn't be the most protected area on the ship, especially since all torpedo blasts occur in the lower saucer hull.
I put Sickbay on Deck 5, port side. Of course, there are several medical facilities on the ship.

That would work great for Jefferies cutaway graphic we've been using above, and an 8 deck saucer, but this graphic was never seen onscreen. But there's lots of dialogue favoring an 11 deck saucer, which would make the center of deck 7 "the best protected part of the ship".

 

[Mytran]

The original source of the "Sickbay = the center of deck deck 7" association comes from "The Making of Star trek" which also posits an 11 deck saucer (for which there is plenty of corroboration from the episodes themselves) and as such, it would definitely qualify as "the best protected part of the ship", whereas a deck 5 location -in an 11 deck saucer- would not.

That would work great for Jefferies cutaway graphic we've been using above, and an 8 deck saucer, but this graphic was never seen onscreen. But there's lots of dialogue favoring an 11 deck saucer, which would make the center of deck 7 "the best protected part of the ship".

It's been a while since I checked all the deck references, but I don't recall the 11-deck saucer being all that well supported in the show. In fact I can only recall this snippet from Errand Of Mercy:

KIRK: Damage report, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Minor, Captain. We were most fortunate. Blast damage in decks ten and eleven, minor buckling in the antimatter pods, casualties very light.
​

This is roughly consistent with the visuals which show weapons impacting on the lower surface of the saucer, but nothing else. In fact, Spock also makes mention of damage to the nacelles (referred to as "pods" in this and numerous other episodes) but there's no visual to match.

 

[Henoch]

This is turning into a "where's Sickbay" thread. According to the Day of the Dove script:

SPOCK: Scans indicate that our forces and those of the Klingons are exactly equal at thirty eight each. The Klingons control deck six and starboard deck seven, while we control all sections above.​

Assuming Sickbay is somewhere among decks 5 through 7, and since Sickbay is used continuously by our hero's during the battle, it can be in only two locations:

1. Sickbay is on deck 5 based on the "we control all sections above". Additionally, this location seems more secure from the Klingons.
2. Sickbay in on deck 7, port side based on "The Klingons control deck six and starboard deck seven", but doesn't seems to be a secure link to the bridge if our hero's have to repeatedly cross through Klingon controlled deck six. Sickbay cannot be on deck 6 since the Klingons control that deck.

My conclusion is that Sickbay is on deck 5.

 

[TIN_MAN]

@ Mytran; There's also some dialog from "City on the Edge of Forever" which strongly implies an 11 deck saucer, though it is possible to interpret it in other ways. It's my understanding that D,C. Fontana edited/rewrote the script for this episode, so she's probable the one who added the throwaway lines alluding to 11 decks. Perhaps not coincidentally, EOM and COTEOF were produced back-to-back, one right after the other, so it seems that Fontana and/or others on the writing staff had 11 decks in mind during this time. there are also a handful of other clues throughout the series which just make a lot more sense in the context of an 11 deck saucer when cross referenced with EOT and COTEOF as well as supplemental material produced shortly thereafter during the second season, such as the 3rd rev of the writers guide (revised by Fontana, by all accounts) which specifically states that the saucer has 11 decks, and since the guide is the very source writers are supposed to be using for just such background materiel, it is reasonable to conclude that later dialog reflects this.

@Dead Henoch; Possibly, but all the our hero's would have to do to get from decks 1-5 to (Sickbay?) port-side deck 7 would be to take a turbolift directly there since no mention is made of the turbolift shafts being out of commission (and therefore no reason to assume they are), and thus there would be no reason for them to be on deck six at any time. after all we are told that emergency bulkheads (which neither faction can get through) have closed, so that might be why deck seven is evenly divided between port and starboard, and would make sickbay secure enough.

In any case, I do hope all this talk of "where's Sickbay" doesn't obscure my original question about the possible script blunder in "The Ultimate Computer".

 

[Mytran]

@ Mytran; There's also some dialog from "City on the Edge of Forever" which strongly implies an 11 deck saucer, though it is possible to interpret it in other ways. It's my understanding that D,C. Fontana edited/rewrote the script for this episode, so she's probable the one who added the throwaway lines alluding to 11 decks. Perhaps not coincidentally, EOM and COTEOF were produced back-to-back, one right after the other, so it seems that Fontana and/or others on the writing staff had 11 decks in mind during this time. there are also a handful of other clues throughout the series which just make a lot more sense in the context of an 11 deck saucer when cross referenced with EOT and COTEOF as well as supplemental material produced shortly thereafter during the second season.

Thanks, I had forgotten about that dialogue!

KIRK: Continue alert, decks four through eleven.​

It does make you wonder why decks 2 & 3 were eliminated from the search though!
It's interesting to think that this is when the first notions of the 11 deck saucer came about though (in the earliest series bible it had been 20 decks).

The situation with the decks in DOTD is an odd one due to the closed bulkheads and deception employed by the Pinwheel Entity - if Decks 6 & 7 where supposed to be the largest decks then the central areas might only be accessible, with the crew trapped on the outer edges. That's quite apart from the crew accessing Main Engineering in the secondary hull!
It might also be that the writers were counting decks from bottom to top - this is why Deck 6 (main deck) is a worry, and the Klingons encroaching upwards towards the Bridge is a serious concern as they've already captured half of Deck 7!

 

[blssdwlf]

Yes, I agree that the "all over the ship" line was included to cover a lot of random territory, however, my thinking is that if deck 5 was not intended to be mentioned at all, and since we did see Kirk using his quarters later in the episode, then there would be no reason to assume that deck 5 was originally intended to be one of the decks/systems shut down in the first place, and therefore no reason to speculate on whether the power was subsequently restored for that deck. in other words, as I said above, it would then make sense -story wise- that M5 never shut down power on deck 5 because, unlike decks 4 and 6 which are the other berth decks specifically called out, and for which there were no crew aboard to use, Kirk and his senior staff are aboard and probably would want to use their quarters -which in other episodes are established as deck 5- from time time during the mission.

Or story wise, M5 shutting down Deck 5 was foreshadowing it's perception of the crew and the potential for it to make mistakes. Kirk and Sickbay isn't needed so shutdown Deck 5 - but it turns out Deck 5 is needed. Anyways, still would be curious to see what the script says.

As far as Sickbay goes, "EOT" isn't very specific, because Kirk first tells Elaan to "go to sickbay" because "its the best protected part of the ship" but she doesn't comply, and then several minutes later -when the immediate threat seems to have abated a little -and Kirk feels he can leave the bridge- he then escorts Elaan into the turbolift and orders "deck 5" to the computer,

Actually there is no "several minutes later" delay between Kirk telling Elaan to go Sickbay and entering the turbolift. He tells her to go to Sickbay, she protests and he decides to take her straight to Deck 5.

KIRK: I'll be the judge. Yes, you're quite right. Thank you, Mister Spock. (to Elaan) I want you to go to Sickbay. It's the best protected part of the ship.
ELAAN: I want to be by your side.
KIRK: Your presence here is interfering with my efficiency, my ability to protect you. Mister Spock, you have the conn.
[Turbolift]
KIRK: Deck five.​

Also, there is another example from "Amok Time" where Kirk drops Spock off at Deck 5. Kirk tells Spock that McCoy is waiting for him in Sickbay.

CHEKOV [on monitor]: We're on course for Vulcan, Captain, as Mister Spock ordered.
KIRK: Thank you, Mister Chekov. Kirk, out.
[Bridge]
KIRK: Mister Spock. Come with me, please.
[Turbolift]
KIRK: Deck five. You've changed course for Vulcan, Mister Spock. Why?
SPOCK: Changed the course?
KIRK: Do you deny it?
SPOCK: No. No, by no means, Captain. It is quite possible.
KIRK: Then why'd you do it?
SPOCK: Captain, I accept on your word that I did it, but I do not know why, nor do I remember doing it.
[Turbolift motion has stopped and the doors have opened.]
Captain, lock me away. I do not wish to be seen. I cannot. No Vulcan could explain further.
KIRK: I'm trying to help you, Spock.
SPOCK: Ask me no further questions. I will not answer.
KIRK: I order you to report to the Sickbay.
SPOCK: Sickbay?
KIRK: Complete examination. McCoy's waiting.
[Spock exits the turbolift, wanders slowly around the hallway and then enters the Sickbay. No extra turbolift rides or ladder climbing seen.]​

 

[Phaser Two]

In any case, I do hope all this talk of "where's Sickbay" doesn't obscure my original question about the possible script blunder in "The Ultimate Computer".

I think I'm responsible and I sincerely apologize. I'm about to launch back into the Sickbay location discussion, but we can talk on two parallel tracks in the same thread. It happens all the time! In total seriousness, though, can you remind me of your original point?


@Dead Henoch, that line from Spock in "Day of the Dove" seems cool at first because it helps us get a fix on things, but like way too many Spock lines - the writers really did him no favors far too often - it makes little sense. "The Klingons control Deck Six and starboard Deck Seven," while we control all sections above" - what?? Deck Six is above starboard Deck Seven, so Spock's statement isn't what you would expect from an incredibly intelligent, logical Vulcan second-in-command of the finest ship in the fleet. What they should have had him say was "The Klingons control Deck Six and starboard Deck Seven, while we control the remainder of Deck Seven and Decks 1 through 5." And what happened to Decks Eight, Nine, Ten, etc., which no one's plans or visual counting have in "the lower decks" that Uhura claims are closed off? Argh.

Despite conflicting references I have long accepted that main engineering is in the secondary hull.

I've settled on a firm opinion that there are two engine rooms, one in the primary hull and one in the secondary hull.

 

[TIN_MAN]

I think I'm responsible and I sincerely apologize. I'm about to launch back into the Sickbay location discussion, but we can talk on two parallel tracks in the same thread. It happens all the time! In total seriousness, though, can you remind me of your original point?

@Dead Henoch, that line from Spock in "Day of the Dove" seems cool at first because it helps us get a fix on things, but like way too many Spock lines - the writers really did him no favors far too often - it makes little sense. "The Klingons control Deck Six and starboard Deck Seven," while we control all sections above" - what?? Deck Six is above starboard Deck Seven, so Spock's statement isn't what you would expect from an incredibly intelligent, logical Vulcan second-in-command of the finest ship in the fleet. What they should have had him say was "The Klingons control Deck Six and starboard Deck Seven, while we control the remainder of Deck Seven and Decks 1 through 5." And what happened to Decks Eight, Nine, Ten, etc., which no one's plans or visual counting have in "the lower decks" that Uhura claims are closed off? Argh.



I've settled on a firm opinion that there are two engine rooms, one in the primary hull and one in the secondary hull.

I agree completely.
But I would add that we have remember that the writing staff intentionally tried to keep deck references vague, especially with presumed one-of-a-kind locations like sickbay and engineering etc, whereas miscellaneous areas that were presumed to be scattered across multiple decks like briefing rooms, rec rooms, and crew quarters were sometimes given specific deck locations.
Of course, mistakes and contradictions occasionally occurred as a result, which is why I don't think relying on just the dialog alone as the be-all-and-end-all of everything is the best way figure this stuff out. Also some things were retconed over the course of the series, such as Kirk's quarters on deck 12 becoming deck 5, or lasers becoming phasers, or lithium crystals becoming dilithium crystals etc. In cases like this, although it can be fun to speculate on ways to reconcile the discrepancies, IMHO we really should just accept them for what they were intended to be i.e. retroactive continuity.

 

[blssdwlf]

@Dead Henoch, that line from Spock in "Day of the Dove" seems cool at first because it helps us get a fix on things, but like way too many Spock lines - the writers really did him no favors far too often - it makes little sense. "The Klingons control Deck Six and starboard Deck Seven," while we control all sections above" - what?? Deck Six is above starboard Deck Seven, so Spock's statement isn't what you would expect from an incredibly intelligent, logical Vulcan second-in-command of the finest ship in the fleet. What they should have had him say was "The Klingons control Deck Six and starboard Deck Seven, while we control the remainder of Deck Seven and Decks 1 through 5." And what happened to Decks Eight, Nine, Ten, etc., which no one's plans or visual counting have in "the lower decks" that Uhura claims are closed off? Argh.

I did a search and there was only two dialogue references ("Day of the Dove" and "The Doomsday Machine") to "Deck Seven" and both had no references to "Sickbay".

As far Deck Seven's port-side and the rest of the decks not named I thought they were basically uncontrolled or "contested" between the Klingon and Enterprise forces. I do wonder how Spock counted a deck or part of the deck as "controlled" though. Did he scan and counted any entryway or hallway controlled if there were only one person of one side there? And if it were unoccupied then not controlled?

The meaning of "lower decks" is also interesting since the engine room that the Klingons held was in the engineering hull. Did that mean the other 400 crew were stuck at the bottom of the engineering hull? Or were they stuck all over the ship and Spock was only describing the corridors and rooms that were not sealed off as being not "lower decks"? Lots of unknowns...

 

[TIN_MAN]

"Day of the Dove" is very confusing for several reasons. From a story-wise POV the *A*L*F* entity is making people believe things that aren't true, so how much we can trust what the characters say in regards to the internal layout of the ship is debatable.
Also, from a "real world" production POV, I think that it was the intention of the writer to confine the action to the primary hull, with the assumption that the Engineering section was in or near the impulse engines, but whoever was in charge of the special effects assumed a secondary hull location for same. Likewise, the hull pressure compartment diagram, probably prepared by Jefferies, also seems to suggest that areas in both hulls are partially accessible to both factions.
So "Day of the Dove" is a perfect example of how contradictions can and do occur even within a single episode, and why I think we are justified in seeking out supplemental sources for clarification.

 

[blssdwlf]

Yeah, "Day of the Dove" has unreliable narrators so any dialogue in that episode could be suspect. Fortunately for us, Sickbay's location isn't mentioned in that episode so it doesn't affect the other two episodes ("Amok Time" and "Elaan of Troyius") that puts it at Deck 5.