ST 5: The Final Blunder

[The Knappos]

I love ST V. The score over the El Capitan climb at the beginning earns it forgiveness for every sin it commits afterwards on its own.

Also, Marvel re-made it recently in its Earth based Shang-Chi movie.

Spoiler

Long lost family member returns and is a baddie
Long lost sibling
Protagonists enjoy a sing song to book end the films
Misplaced comic relief
Baddie sacrifices self to protect goodie from the real evil

There are other similarities but I forgot them specifically right now

Edited at the request of the poster.

 

[Qonundrum]

For Star Trek V, one of the biggest ones for me is “Why send the Enterprise if she is not ready for action?” Admiral Bob even tells Kirk that there are other ships, but no experienced commanders. It makes no sense that they’d send the Enterprise, which doesn’t even have operational transporters, to a hostage rescue mission in the Neutral Zone. In real life, they’d just put Kirk and perhaps some of the command crew on a fully-operational ship and get them to the crisis.

^^this

I just rewatched TFF. I dare say it's underrated, though the forced comedy thanks to TVH does more to derail more of it than any of the script's issues... but that line stood out to me as well. If time is of the essence, how many more hours would be needed to get a functional ship over?

Then again, we'd lose out on the use of the shuttles and TFF did rather a good job at using them.

But how come the three representatives didn't have any ships of their own? They seem "important enough"? We are told General Korrd had fallen out of favor so maybe he's in a one-person ship. But Kaithlin-Darr and St John Talbot? Who ferried them there out of boredom?

I wrote my scenario on another thread where I would've had a pre-title sequence where we see how difficult it would be to cross the Great Barrier, to punctuate what Kirk mentioned it can't be reached,

The existing pre-title sequence seemed decent, though yours sounds better in setting up the greater threat.

the hijacking could still happen by Sybok and have a scary sequence as the crew dives into the Barrier and when they arrive on the planet Kirk, Spock, & McCoy gain knowledge people actually survived. How and by whom? An act of God? My direction would've been more in the vain of Indiana Jones, but you're right working transporters would've made the rescue mission on Nimbus play out differently.

Yeah, the story stretches thanks to the panacea the transporters otherwise allow. Or, as some would say, "because of plot" and they're right. It does detract if the story flow doesn't feel natural. Time may be of the essence but Admiral Bob must be so sure that Jim can figure his way out of anything. Maybe a script polish could have helped...

Probably would've saved us a lot of time on the bizarre scenes where an 80 year old Uhura is dancing naked as a distraction and for some reason that alien world raised horses there. Not a fan of the rescue sequence.

Wasn't Nichelle 60 at the time? But those were probably her legs... not sure what was going through the mind at the writers' table as the whole of the rescue scene is a mixed bag. Overall decent despite it all, and the introduction of how to get Kirk and co to the site to rescue the hostages wasn't bad, but not without "Huh?" moments and that's before some of the off-kilter jokes were put in. "Be one with your horse", "hold your horses" right on cue, etc... I will dare to say it, it feels like something "The Orville" might do and it'd fit in there better.

But, yeah, horses... at least the bar wasn't playing a Patti Smith song or some other meta postmodern reference... then again, the seedy bar of galactic peace had almost every other cliche going on anyway. Oh wait, the ship had 79 decks... #78 is shown but there's at least one above before they hit the ceiling...

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it's a lovely song, especially when it starts to kick in at 0:45, but the flow of the song just builds and builds and really lets loose after the first minute. Revved up great stuff, with some nice artistry in the build-up...

 

[Qonundrum]

I love ST V. The score over the El Capitan climb at the beginning earns it forgiveness for every sin it commits afterwards on its own.

Also, Marvel re-made it recently in its Earth based Shang-Chi movie.

Spoiler

Long lost family member returns and is a baddie
Long lost sibling
Protagonists enjoy a sing song to book end the films
Misplaced comic relief
Baddie sacrifices self to protect goodie from the real evil

There are other similarities but I forgot them specifically right now

Edited at the request of the poster.

The soundtrack really adds a LOT. Especially the mind control scenes. And the attack scenes; with the Klingons, Jerry Goldsmith used a sound that reminded me of "War of the Worlds" with that gravely "khee-khee-khee-khee" sound before the horn noise.

Loved Klaa as an adversary. Though why he'd aim at the shuttle as it couldn't fight back (but the goal would be to eliminate a recurring nemesis from their point of view.)

Loved Vixis phoning it in as a Federation representative when intercepting the distress call.

There are a lot of little moments that were quite good. A shame there's so much that rubs the wrong way or is utterly nonsensical.

The movie has its flaws, but just taking out the forced comedy alone would be a massive improvement. Keep McCoy's lines, though - his feel the most authentic. But, seriously, the separate log book that Kirk picks up malfunctions and proverbially flips its lid was too much. In a movie loaded with too much out-of-place comedy. STIV's worked because they kept the comedy act to the 20th century, wisely using the "fish out of water" trope. Back home in the 23rd century, STV lacks that luxury. So they turn all the characters into the butt of jokes.

Sybok is an interesting creation and how they gloss over it just about works. It's the only way to explain why Spock wouldn't shoot with a weapon that had no "stun" setting, in a pivotal scene.

The campfire stuff is weird, but I can't help but to smile along with it. The McCoy/Spock moments save it.

Shatner has a panache for directing; there's a style.

STV is not the best movie, nor could it be, but it's by no means the nadir of the series, even in 1989. In 1989, I was lukewarm to it what with having seen III and IV that felt stronger. But with the passing of the years, it became clearer as to what had potential and what was crass. I recall the movie having rewrites because of the rock monsters and God vs Satan or something and the latter would be too on-the-nose, but the last thing a good Trek movie needs is comedy because "If the previous movie had comedy and it brought in a zillion dollars so let's do it again and we'll get two zillion dollars! Details aren't important. Just make it ha-ha-bonk funny! Audiences yum it up!"

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Shatner has a panache for directing; there's a style.

I actually disagree strenuously with this point. Shatner is obviously an inexperienced director. He gets some good work out of his fellow actors, which speaks well to the rapport he had with them on set (even the actors who famously disliked him) But pacing problems are entirely on the director's shoulders.

One example I just posted on another thread (and I hope you don't mind some cut-and-paste now) is the fall off El Capitan. It killed me at the time, and still makes me mad when I watch it now, that Ken Bates performed the largest descender fall in the US (at the time) and Shatner ruined it with terrible green-screen insert shots.

I always compare it to the opening of The Spy Who Loved Me, where Bond skis off the edge of a cliff and we get twenty uninterrupted seconds of the stuntman falling before he pulls his chute. (relevant section starts around the 2:00 mark)

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Twenty seconds to appreciate how far he's falling because the camera never cuts. Twenty seconds of the audience holding its breath. Just a stuntman falling seemingly endlessly in space. Building and building tension right up to a fist-pumping release. That's a skilled and experienced director at work.

Next to that, this is just... silly.

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Shatner takes his spectacular stunt and strips all the drama out of it by chopping it up. We get a series of unconvincing (and mismatching) bluescreen insert shots, a reaction shot from McCoy, and a bizarre POV shot that indicates Kirk is falling at a remarkably slow speed. There's no tension, no drama. And we can't even properly appreciate the stunt because we don't get to see it. Bates' fall might as well have been thirty feet, based on what Shatner and the editor did to it.

Directing is hard. Few actors can successfully make the transition. And Shatner had more than his share of obstacles making his job even harder. But unfortunately, his inexperience shows in the finished product.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

How did Captain Kirk change in midair?

 

[DonIago]

^He's that awesome.

 

[JamesRye]

For Star Trek V, one of the biggest ones for me is “Why send the Enterprise if she is not ready for action?” Admiral Bob even tells Kirk that there are other ships, but no experienced commanders. It makes no sense that they’d send the Enterprise, which doesn’t even have operational transporters, to a hostage rescue mission in the Neutral Zone. In real life, they’d just put Kirk and perhaps some of the command crew on a fully-operational ship and get them to the crisis.

Maybe this is an example of a 'changed premise'. I know Excelsior was shown in the space dock - but we could assume that maybe she had another mission or that her engines still needed repair. In TOS, we don't really see many other Federation ships and there are maybe 4 other constitution class vessels. In TMP, The Enterprise is the only ship in range to defend Earth against VGER. Really, its only when CGI became ubiquitous that we see giant fleets of ships in Star Trek. I mean, Enterprise kind of ret-cons that, but this idea that the Federation only has a limited fleet is even evident in TNG. At Wolf 359, 40 ships comprises the fleet that are sent to battle the Borg and we can pre-suppose that this is the majority of the fleet as only the D defends Earth. I mean, there are a few sentry thingies around Mars - but that looked like all there was.

 

[DonIago]

In BoBW the Borg attack came so swiftly that 40 ships was all that could be there in time. To say it's the majority of the fleet seems like an unwarranted extrapolation to me.

 

[JamesRye]

In BoBW the Borg attack came so swiftly that 40 ships was all that could be there in time. To say it's the majority of the fleet seems like an unwarranted extrapolation to me.

Maybe so, I guess they only had a week to prepare. But then again, Shelby states that:
"We'll have the fleet back up in less than a year."

And Starfleet knew they were coming after Q-Who and the destruction along the neutral zone, so you think they'd be somewhat prepared.

And in the TNG manual, Sternbach states that there were only 6 Galaxy class ships. Maybe Starfleet went crazy after TBOBW and built a whole lot more, because we see huge Federation fleets.

My point is that we don't see large numbers of ships until CGI came about in the late 90's.

 

[DonIago]

We don't really know what fleet deployment looked like at the time of BoBW though. Forty starships at Wolf 359 is still a heck of a lot better than, "The Enterprise is the only ship that can intercept in time." Maybe there had been a crisis in that darned Laurentian System (I'd really like to know why so much of Starfleet was there in the '09 film).

Given Wolf 359's proximity to Earth, it seems likely that the majority of Earth's defenses were the ships deployed there plus every other ship within range, which might explain why the Mars Defense Perimeter was so lackluster...that is, because it was never intended to fight anything serious off without additional support.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

"The only starship in range" is such a lazy cop-out. Few things drive me as crazy as that trope does.

 

[Verteron]

Here's one for you, why did Sybok need the Enterprise?

Surely there were easier targets if all he needed was transportation. Why orchestrate such a high risk hostage situation on Nimbus III when he could have simply used his mind trick on the Romulan ambassador and have her summon a transport ship (rather than a full blown starship), converted the small crew to his cause, and taken that through the barrier, without the chance of any counter-mutiny by a certain Starfleet command staff.

After all he didn't believe the barrier posed him any threat, surely this would have been equally true if he was any ship, not just on the Enterprise.

 

[DonIago]

A small transport ship likely would have lacked the power/capacity to penetrate the Great Barrier...at least in the novelization, Sybok did make modifications to the ship's shields (in fact, it annoyed me that that part was dropped from the film). When Sybok says the barrier doesn't pose a threat, they're already aboard the Enterprise, so he may have meant the barrier didn't pose a threat because they were aboard a powerful vessel.

Also, if one subscribes to the notion that being assigned to Nimbus III was a punishment rather than a reward, then it likely follows that any of the ambassadors asking for a ship wouldn't have been treated very seriously.

 

[Maurice]

A small transport ship likely would have lacked the power/capacity to penetrate the Great Barrier...at least in the novelization, Sybok did make modifications to the ship's shields (in fact, it annoyed me that that part was dropped from the film).

Just because it was in a novelization doesn't mean it was ever in a script, and if it not, it wasn't "dropped" from the film, it was added to the novel. That's a strange new world of difference.

I actually disagree strenuously with this point. Shatner is obviously an inexperienced director. He gets some good work out of his fellow actors, which speaks well to the rapport he had with them on set (even the actors who famously disliked him) But pacing problems are entirely on the director's shoulders.

One example I just posted on another thread (and I hope you don't mind some cut-and-paste now) is the fall off El Capitan. It killed me at the time, and still makes me mad when I watch it now, that Ken Bates performed the largest descender fall in the US (at the time) and Shatner ruined it with terrible green-screen insert shots.

As to the subject of directing, in most films the producer has final cut, not the director, so it's a tad unfair to hold Shatner responsible for the release edit if he didn't have final cut in his contract. That'd be at least in-part on Bennett.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Oh, I think there's plenty of blame to go around.

But yes, ultimately it falls on Bennett. He had done a great job keeping budgets down in the past, and tailoring stories to what they could reasonably accomplish, but couldn't make this one work.

It probably didn't help that Shatner was not the same kind of director that Nimoy was. Nimoy was by all accounts pretty clear with his vision and knew exactly the type of story he wanted to tell, which is why his scripts are a lot more focused, less scattershot, than TFF turned out to be. I suspect Shatner needed someone to help him formulate a coherent plan and turn all the story elements into making that plan work.

 

[PCz911]

The movie was essentially a remake of the way to Eden… just without the space hippies. At least that episode had a more believable way to take over the enterprise.

Shatner’s plot was horrible

 

[Qonundrum]

Oh, I think there's plenty of blame to go around.

But yes, ultimately it falls on Bennett. He had done a great job keeping budgets down in the past, and tailoring stories to what they could reasonably accomplish, but couldn't make this one work.

It probably didn't help that Shatner was not the same kind of director that Nimoy was. Nimoy was by all accounts pretty clear with his vision and knew exactly the type of story he wanted to tell, which is why his scripts are a lot more focused, less scattershot, than TFF turned out to be. I suspect Shatner needed someone to help him formulate a coherent plan and turn all the story elements into making that plan work.

Well...

TVH was a fun escapade, but had so many checkbox list items contrived to be fixed within 24 hours.

Really, nobody else banged into the cloaked ship? Or noticed the indentation where the smooshed grass was not swaying when surrounding grass was? The cloak covers visuals but I'm sure any sounds emitting from the ship would still be there...

The Klingon ship manages to make it after the slingshot effect to make it to 20th century Earth, but we see cutaways of the ship starting to fall apart. No worries, when the script calls for it they warp right on back to the 23rd and nary a problem ensues. Oh yeah, Scotty and especially McCoy are chock full of unusually odd comments too. But that helps build up to the events of STVI - TUC.

Sulu wanders in to get a helicopter with absolutely no credentials, uh-huh... there's a huge subplot quickly and fully sidestepped... he wouldn't have begun to have had enough money to rent one... The novelilzation fills in a gap, but the movie should have told it instead. Let's pretend Plexicorp really owned it and really let Sulu used it for free in exchange for the virtual magic beans Scotty typed up in record time on the Macintosh there (and aren't those 20th century people so easy to believe it too), there are still bigger issues with that subplot and the conveniences and should the audience have to rely on a separate publication to do what the main movie needed to?

Chekov throws his phaser in some misguided belief it'll bounce off all his adversaries' foreheads and konk them all out... so it's in the hands of the ship they trespassed on. No worries, the "it must be the wadaiation" line smooths out all those details (except it doesn't). His communicator vanished as well, surely? But as other aliens gave 1950s humans the transistor, and Scotty gave Doctor Hornball there how to make transparent aluminum in another scene... (for all the complaints people lobbed at more recent series, mistakes were made in the past. The only difference is, various showmakers have said audiences nowadays are more sophisticated - suggesting the scripts need to be better than having all the mistakes made back in the day.))

Also, if the commander took the toy ray gun to give it to his kid and, with said phaser no longer near any radioactive sources (and assuming said commander and crew don't die from radiation poisoning a handful of years later)... I'm pretty sure the radiation didn't plotdevice the phaser out of its functionality as they could still use Uhura's communicator (which would regain strength because radiation probably doesn't work like what was claimed anymore than token sci-fi shows using radiation to give people the ability to make big strong spider webs or big muscles when they get angry and so on. But in Startrekland, it otherwise works that way - except they're pretending they're in our 20th century and that's where suspension of disbelief jumps out the window.)

Yes, they get the nuclear energy gizmo back in time but there's no elapsed time suggesting weeks or months went by before the transparent aluminum panels were made. (Yup, returning to this plot point from earlier. ) All in one day for a completely new technology based on aluminum rather than plastic (a completely separate technology and fabrication process), and if Madelaine really was going in for a nooner as office staff generally have protocols rather than waltzing right on into Doctor Nichols' office after opening the door without knocking...

Who's the pompous ass who yelled "YOU POMPOUS ASS!!" at the Klingon Ambassador, as if that would even begin to help tense relations and fix misunderstandings? Couldn't the scriptwriters wait until the crew got to the 20th century?

The movie starts out with 9 violations, but when the crew are in the trial room only 6 are counted. Also, the old trope of "camera in space" to neatly get the footage of Enterprise blowing up is a hoot (in-universe; as home video was still too new, these recaps are for the benefit of the audience so I don't think too much into those bits. TSFS also does recapping too, because they didn't want Carol Marcus narrating the Genesis Device again, on top of other nitpicks...)

It's otherwise a fantastic start, but if the alien probe is sucking energy from every ship, overlook how everyone still has gravity but if every ship and station are being neutralized, solar sails won't make a lick of difference because Probey McProbekins will just get that much more power. Solar sails are still a neat idea to try either which way to keep people busy, but the top-level issue is that the probe is sucking energy of all sorts... not to mention, we never found out if the solar sails worked (didn't need to, Spock's guess was a really good one too, though when McCoy said with genuine admiration that Kirk would put Spock's guesses over most peoples' facts, who wouldn't engender a smile? )

Granted, no movie or TV plot is ever bulletproof, but there are always positive compensations in a film handled right. Nimoy also had more free reign than Shatner had, who had to do the same comedy (at the studio's behest, which I've heard bandied about) because STIV raked it in big so therefore comedy will always work better than doing it seriously when it comes to bringing in the audiences, atop a reduced budget. Add in subject matter that, no matter how tamed, couldn't be done on such a small budget...

Either which way, both movies had plenty of script moments that just about took me out of them. And would for many. Nimoy had better luck with a script that held together just that much better despite it all. Even then, I, II, III, and VI are a lot tighter when all is said and done. And VI screwed up with the a couple clocks being off by a few minutes too... that said, both are also enjoyable in the right mood. IV more so, but some of V's scenes are better than IV's, generally when the plot gets serious again.

 

[UssGlenn]

Yes, they get the nuclear energy gizmo back in time but there's no elapsed time suggesting weeks or months went by before the transparent aluminum panels were made. (Yup, returning to this plot point from earlier. ) All in one day for a completely new technology based on aluminum rather than plastic (a completely separate technology and fabrication process), and if Madelaine really was going in for a nooner as office staff generally have protocols rather than waltzing right on into Doctor Nichols' office after opening the door without knocking...

They traded the formula for 6" plexiglas panels "we carry stuff that big in stock". They said it would take years to figure out how to make Transparent Aluminum.

 

[STEPhon IT]

^^this

I just rewatched TFF. I dare say it's underrated, though the forced comedy thanks to TVH does more to derail more of it than any of the script's issues... but that line stood out to me as well. If time is of the essence, how many more hours would be needed to get a functional ship over?

Then again, we'd lose out on the use of the shuttles and TFF did rather a good job at using them.

But how come the three representatives didn't have any ships of their own? They seem "important enough"? We are told General Korrd had fallen out of favor so maybe he's in a one-person ship. But Kaithlin-Darr and St John Talbot? Who ferried them there out of boredom?



The existing pre-title sequence seemed decent, though yours sounds better in setting up the greater threat.



Yeah, the story stretches thanks to the panacea the transporters otherwise allow. Or, as some would say, "because of plot" and they're right. It does detract if the story flow doesn't feel natural. Time may be of the essence but Admiral Bob must be so sure that Jim can figure his way out of anything. Maybe a script polish could have helped...



Wasn't Nichelle 60 at the time? But those were probably her legs... not sure what was going through the mind at the writers' table as the whole of the rescue scene is a mixed bag. Overall decent despite it all, and the introduction of how to get Kirk and co to the site to rescue the hostages wasn't bad, but not without "Huh?" moments and that's before some of the off-kilter jokes were put in. "Be one with your horse", "hold your horses" right on cue, etc... I will dare to say it, it feels like something "The Orville" might do and it'd fit in there better.

But, yeah, horses... at least the bar wasn't playing a Patti Smith song or some other meta postmodern reference... then again, the seedy bar of galactic peace had almost every other cliche going on anyway. Oh wait, the ship had 79 decks... #78 is shown but there's at least one above before they hit the ceiling...

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it's a lovely song, especially when it starts to kick in at 0:45, but the flow of the song just builds and builds and really lets loose after the first minute. Revved up great stuff, with some nice artistry in the build-up...

This is interesting of what you've mentioned and I agree with you. Here's something different, what if the landing party surveyed the grounds of Nimbus III and noticed the people were in a trance? Spock later realizes this is something which is psionic and could be some radical form of a mind meld. Which later they discover Sybok surrounded by a mass full of people as he perform miracles and chanting sermons; a path to find God. Kirk had come to the conclusion the big threat is the manipulation of the people's minds; but it is not - but rather these people has finally found what they were looking for... an act of faith. Kirk will struggle whether this Sybok is legit or the 23 Century's version of Jim Jones.

Meta postmodern references are not necessary for that movie, and the bar scene was stale but I wish Shatner that of this idea of God more thoroughly. The set designs could've had some religious designs or writings anywhere to capture the religious theme it desperately needed. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" really hit home the steaks of the mcguffin, I wanted the same for this movie.

 

[valkyrie013]

Just rewatched it. been, well probably a decade since I've last watched it.

Some thoughts on how it could have been more streamlined.
Make it a follow up to Where no man has gone before. the 2nd pilot of Tos.
Instead of the "Great Barrier" at the center of the galaxy, just have it be the Galactic Barrier. and Sybok trying to reach a planet that is stuck Inside the barrier. and from there we find out that the Galactic barrier was created to cage this entity and use its power to create the barrier to protect the galaxy from extra galactic threats.
Sybok is still spocks brother, but he was on a vulcan expedition to the barrier long ago, and he revives visions of a planet, and goes insane. Maybe have this as a pre credits scene.
Events generally play out in the movie, but he sets a course for the planet in the galactic barrier, and he modifies the shields to get to the planet. Things on the planet generally play out, explanation of the barrier, how the esp powers are him/it trying to contact others to get out of the prison. and things play out as it did.

basically just a more polished script, taking out some of the HUH? stuff.