Poll Do Animals Think and Have Feelings?
- Thread starter JD
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Although octopi have been shown to have basic problem solving abilities, even though their brain is distributed throughout their body.
Right, octopodes (not -pi) are probably a very interesting exception.
Oh yeah, I know that, but a lot of movies and books like to show predators specifically targeting people, and they don't usually do that. If a situations arises where a person is convenient prey, they might take it, but they won't go out of their way just to attack people.
I'm sure they do think and have feelings, but I think that their thinking is different than ours- more like an infant's for the most part, in that they tend to live in the moment rather than think about past and future. They also cannot think abstractly, except perhaps in the most basic way as it pertains to food and creature comforts.
Your animals, that you spend time around, certainly do have thinking brains, and emotional responses... but they're not just like us... & I don't say that to diminish them, only to highlight the differentiation. They don't think or feel in the same ways we do.
There's similarities or course, & maybe it's something of a continuum like @StarMan suggested, where they have developmentally subjacent versions comparatively, but yes. MANY animals having functional thought processes going on, & also exhibit social & emotional processes as well. It's evolutional after all. We didn't uniquely develop those things out of the blue. It can be found in varying degrees all around the animal kingdom.
BTW, WE too still operate on instincts far more than any of us realize or even want to admit. We are just animals too, that were fortunate enough to get some solid prosperity time banked, for specific types of development that got us here.
That's an odd distinction though. We're omnivores. We can eat just about any animal. We choose to eat & farm the ones we frequently eat for specific reasons, chief most among them their ease in handling. which would include not being dangerous enough to eat us.
Because we're not usually an active part of their normal food chain, or even their local environment in most cases, but as we've agreed, many predators like mammalian ones do think, & once they start thinking human might be good on their menu, then the possibility of open season is very likely.
A lot of what works in our favor imho is that we are unusual to them, & that makes hunting us appear by & large too risky. There's a lot of unknowns for them when encountering us... & so to be fair, the large amount of time predators attack humans, it's a baser instinct like protecting themselves or their young or territory (which sustains them & their young)
And I get pretty tired of dumb movie nonsense like that, personally.
Not exactly a scientific study, but it's hard to watch this video and not see animals as thinking, discerning, deeply feeling beings.
This is obviously nonsense. Do you think cats never climb indoors? Do you think they never fight, whether for play or for real? If a declawed cat accidentally got outside, would you have it be defenseless? Is furniture that damn important that a cat has to be maimed for it?
I had a cat who had a thing about hair - human hair. She'd sit on the back of my chair and run her claws through my hair, as a way of grooming me. I found it relaxing.
One of my chairs is an incredibly tattered armchair. The cats have definitely rendered it down to bare wood in places. But y'know what? I don't care. I've got plenty of blankets and afghans to hide that, and it's a comfortable chair. I have fond memories of dozing there, or reading a book, with my cats snuggling in with me. We were in our own little island of togetherness on that chair, and that is what matters far more than what it looks like.
Of course they instinctively do that stuff but it isn’t required for survival. You’re applying a purity test that just doesn’t matter to most people. If you feel like it’s a horrible crime to take away their claws because they instinctively scratch and climb you shouldn’t be spaying them.
If you’re going to be righteously outraged that people modify their pets bodies for their convenience, you can’t pick and choose which modifications are acceptable and which aren’t. It’s okay to take away their ability to perform their basic procreation instincts but not okay to take away their ability to climb the drapes?
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Oh, PLEASE.
Spaying and self-defense have NOTHING to do with each other. Spaying has to do with reproductive biology, and I've had enough pregnant cats and their kittens around to know that pregnancy isn't always easy for a cat, nor are all cats loving mothers in the same degree. Cats can get pregnant as young as 5 months, definitely 6 months (which was news to the building manager here when he adopted 2 female kittens).
Three of my cats were a three-generation family, and it was fascinating to watch how they interacted over the years. The oldest had SEVEN kittens in the same year, in two different litters. She'd barely got done weaning the first litter, then she got pregnant again. This was before she moved into the house; she was a stray living under the back porch and we were trying (and gradually succeeding) at winning her trust so she would want to live in the house. About halfway through her second pregnancy she must have realized that warmth and steady food was a good thing, so she moved in.
She was pregnant with a third litter by the time I had her spayed - hadn't known about that third litter. The vet aborted them without asking permission. I've felt guilty about that for a very long time, but realized that her going through yet another cycle of giving birth and weaning, when she was clearly tired of the whole kitten thing (she weaned litter #2 earlier than they wanted), wouldn't have been good either.
Cat #2 was female, and when she went into heat, my grandmother couldn't stand the yowling. So she let her out... and bingo. A few weeks later I noticed the cat was heavier, and asked my grandmother, who whined, "She wasn't out very long..."
I told her, "It doesn't TAKE very long!"
So Cat #2 had 3 kittens, 2 females and a male. She was a fantastic mother, and my grandmother decided we could keep the boy but had to get rid of the girls, as she (my grandmother) didn't want any more kittens. We gave the girls away, kept the boy, and got Cat #2 spayed. Cat #3 was neutered at the appropriate time. Cat #2 never really got over her other two kittens being taken away, and spent a lot of time looking for them, mewling and calling for them. She finally started taking socks as kitten-substitutes - I don't know where she hid them, but she'd take socks from both my dad and me, and hide them away. She tried to hide her other kitten as well so he wouldn't also disappear.
Okay, cut off one-third of every digit you have - fingers, thumbs, and toes. Then see how well you cope. That's what you want to do to cats - for YOUR CONVENIENCE.
Drapes can be replaced. Furniture can be replaced. You can even train cats not to climb and claw indoors, if you're consistent about it. There are ways to protect furniture, and keeping the cat's claws trimmed also helps.
I suppose you're equally outraged at the idea of neutering? Well, if a smelly house and a wandering cat is your thing, by all means, don't have them neutered.
Unless it's medically necessary. I had a cat whose front paws were deformed and she couldn't retract her claws, which caused her pain. So she was declawed for her own wellbeing.
For The Record, I agree with @StarMan that it's most likely a continuum/spectrum, as most things tend to be IME. Every cat and dog I've known certainly has emotions of their own. Thinking... well, some ain't that bright.
Medically necessary is a different thing. The people I have no patience with are those who do it for "convenience" (theirs, not the cat's), and for the sake of some piece of furniture they'll probably get rid of long before they get rid of the cat (unless they get rid of the cat because of its distress at having one third of all its digits amputated).
I have a book called The Nine Emotional Lives of Cats. The author has several cats, and the book seems largely anecdotal, as there are some points he makes that certainly don't apply to my cats or any other cat I know. But it's still an interesting take on the question - examining love, hate, jealousy, grief, etc.
These apply to dogs as well. I used to have many more dog friends than human friends, and two of them were neighbors to each other. I soon discovered that it was impossible to pet both of them at the same time without trespassing in one yard and having the dog in the other yard come to the fence so I could reach both at once. So it didn't matter if I petted Killer the Jack Russel Terrier (cute little guy) or whichever Basset Hound was next door (either Barney or Eliza)... whoever wasn't being petted got jealous.
^ Quite a few humans just “ain’t that bright”, as this lady found out earlier this week (to the surprise of no one but her on Oahu)…
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/monk-seal-attacks-woman-newborn-pup-hawaii/#app
Cheers,
-CM-
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/monk-seal-attacks-woman-newborn-pup-hawaii/#app
Cheers,
-CM-
That's a terrible comparison.
Cats that are spayed before they first go through heat have a lower chance of developing breast cancer and cancers of the reproductive system. We adopted a cat named Sierra when she was three who we found out wasn't spayed by the previous owner until she was over a year old and she developed breast cancer and had to be euthanized because the tumor grew into her lungs and she was in pain and had difficulty breathing.
They also have less chance of developing infections of the reproductive organs since they're removed.
They are less likely to try and escape the house to mate so in turn they are less likely to be hit by cars, attacked by other animals, get infections or illnesses from other animals, get lost, stolen, etc.
Along with the factors mentioned above, not having to go through physically taxing childbirth (an average littler is four, but can be as many as twelve kittens) increases the lifespan of early spayed cats on average by several years.
Spaying prevents cats from giving birth to numerous kittens that most people who don't live on a farm / large property or in a huge house are ill-equipped to care for and are often malnourished, mistreated, fight for territory / dominance / food, or escape and are euthanized en masse by the city's animal control department or non no-kill shelters who can't afford to care for them if they're not adopted in time.
Spaying (and neutering for male cats) is a life-saving and life-extending procedure for cats that should be done before a cat goes through their first heat (around six months) for anyone who is not prepared or equipped to care for numerous kittens who will grow to have numerous kittens of their own like Tribbles.
Spaying and neutering are beneficial to the cats. Declawing is not, and is a permanently debilitating and painful (and not just after the surgery) amputation that leaves them defenseless and unable to itch and less able to clean themselves, among other issues. If you want to own cats, you're just going to have to accept that scratching furniture is a package deal and take what measures you can to mitigate it that don't involve amputating your cat's claws, which would be like cutting off all your fingers and toes at the first knuckle and then having to walk on them and use your nubby hands for the rest of your life. Buy a scratching post or hang some scratch pads near the couch and other soft furniture for them to scratch instead. There is scratch resistant furniture you can buy as well. We bought a scratch resistant couch.
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