Star Trek VI. the stupidity of Starfleet and Spock for choosing Kirk to meet with Gorkon

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Yes, there were undoubtedly Nazis who respected individual Jews but still worked towards genocide. It just doesn't make sense that Kirk is one of them. It's just wildly out of character for him.

Yes, there is absolutely a way they could have made it work. Your idea is significantly more nuanced than what we got in the finished product. You keep describing much better versions of the story - I'd really rather watch your film!

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, there were undoubtedly Nazis who respected individual Jews but still worked towards genocide. It just doesn't make sense that Kirk is one of them. It's just wildly out of character for him.

Yes, there is absolutely a way they could have made it work. Your idea is significantly more nuanced than what we got in the finished product. You keep describing much better versions of the story - I'd really rather watch your film!

I am just describing what I see in the film.

 

[David cgc]

C'mon, of course Kirk would know in his bones that Klingons are all just folks. Who hasn't engaged in some light anthropophagy, or operated the occasional planet-wide forced-labor camp?

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

I am just describing what I see in the film.

You are improving on the film by introducing nuance that is most certainly not in the text. You seem to have thought about it much more thoroughly than the filmmakers did.

BTW, I approve wholeheartedly.

 

[Jeyl]

(For example, Gorkon wasn't disintegrated in order for him to grunt his last words to Kirk.)

I always saw that sequence of the two assassins not vaporizing their victims as a means of leaving selective witnesses and evidence. Leaving Gorkon alive for just a bit longer did emotionally impact his daughter.

 

[fireproof78]

You are improving on the film by introducing nuance that is most certainly not in the text. You seem to have thought about it much more thoroughly than the filmmakers did.

BTW, I approve wholeheartedly.

I don't think so. I'm largely going off of my memory of the film and Star Trek in general.

 

[Kor]

"Errand of Mercy" established that Klingon officers are always under surveillance. So it could have worked for the two people in gravity/magnetic boots (which is it??) to go around vaporizing everyone, as the video footage would have solidly implicated Starfleet in the eyes of the Klingon court. But then we wouldn't get such dramatic story beats as McCoy fumbling to save Gorkon followed by Gorkon's last words to Kirk, and the testimony of the one-armed Klingon man.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

"Errand of Mercy" established that Klingon officers are always under surveillance. So it could have worked for the two people in gravity/magnetic boots (which is it??) to go around vaporizing everyone, as the video footage would have solidly implicated Starfleet in the eyes of the Klingon court. But then we wouldn't get such dramatic story beats as McCoy fumbling to save Gorkon followed by Gorkon's last words to Kirk, and the testimony of the one-armed Klingon man.

Kor

No, not the one armed man!

Honestly, if there were two things I would change to TUC it is the Spock/Valeris mind meld scene, and McCoy's fumbling with Gorkon. Those moments are the few times I genuinely cringe at those scenes.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

I don't think so. I'm largely going off of my memory of the film and Star Trek in general.

I think you're also adding your interpretations, not necessarily what was on the screen.

Which is fine, your interpretations improve the story greatly.

Honestly, if there were two things I would change to TUC it is the Spock/Valeris mind meld scene, and McCoy's fumbling with Gorkon. Those moments are the few times I genuinely cringe at those scenes.

I didn't mind the fumbling with Gorkon so much. The mind-rape scene is one of those out-of-character moments that I don't think they quite justified.

 

[fireproof78]

I can't recall McCoy operating on Klingons previously. And even though Spock is mind-probing to agonized degree, it's coming from his anger at Valeris's personal betrayal. He's letting himself be humanly angry. And Nimoy's delivery of the line ''She doesn't know'' shows Spock regrets going that far himself.

I get the purpose behind it. How it is done in the film is not done well, in my opinion. It's very distracting from the rest of the story.

Nimoy's portrayal is very well done. But, it doesn't quite fit.

 

[Kor]

McCoy apparently recognized just enough about Klingon anatomy that he could identify Arne Darvin as a Klingon in TTWT. But having to perform major emergency surgery would be another matter altogether.

Kor

 

[urrutiap]

I dont want to drag this one about Star Trek VI, but Valeris was pretty dumb for a Vulcan. She should have known better to start all that mess and should have known that Spock was going to go into mind meld mode

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

I dont want to drag this one about Star Trek VI, but Valeris was pretty dumb for a Vulcan. She should have known better to start all that mess and should have known that Spock was going to go into mind meld mode

I think this is one of those things that would have made more sense for Saavik and should have been dropped when they decided not to bring back Robin Curtis.

Saavik's betrayal would have hit Spock (and the audience) with a much greater force, and would have justified a profound anger. But from a new protege we just met and haven't had time to care about or trust? It just doesn't make sense that he'd fly off the handle into full-on mind rape.

 

[suarezguy]

he bristles at the notion that anyone would presume to tell the Federation how to handle its "interstellar relations", as he puts it. He doesn't want a war but doesn't want anyone to tell him he can't wage war.

Yes, there were undoubtedly Nazis who respected individual Jews but still worked towards genocide. It just doesn't make sense that Kirk is one of them. It's just wildly out of character for him.

All he wanted was basically to not give charity to Klingons, that's quite a lot less than wanting to and working to exterminate them, and it's very consistent for him to think his society has the right, all societies have the right, to decide to not give charity.

Saavik's betrayal would have hit Spock (and the audience) with a much greater force, and would have justified a profound anger. But from a new protege we just met and haven't had time to care about or trust?

Most film characters we just meet for the first time and yet they have known each other for a long time offscreen.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

All he wanted was basically to not give charity to Klingons, that's quite a lot less than wanting to and working to exterminate them, and it's very consistent for him to think his society has the right, all societies have the right, to decide to not give charity.

That's like saying throwing a drowning person a life preserver is "charity". It's not.

Kirk was advocating for genocide, that the Federation should withhold help so that the Klingon people die out.

Ironically, when the Klingon Ambassador accused Kirk of such genocidal bigotry in The Voyage Home, everybody knew that was so far out of Kirk's character as to be ludicrous. But just two films later we're asked to do a 180 and believe something we already knew to be a lie.

Most film characters we just meet for the first time and yet they have known each other for a long time offscreen.

And very seldom are we asked to react to the betrayal the way we were asked to react to Valeris's betrayal. Because Spock's reaction is also wildly out of character, and could only be (slightly) justified in extreme circumstances not present in this film.

 

[fireproof78]

I dont want to drag this one about Star Trek VI, but Valeris was pretty dumb for a Vulcan. She should have known better to start all that mess and should have known that Spock was going to go into mind meld mode

All it takes is underestimating how far a person will go. And she underestimated Spock, just like the conspirators overestimated Kirk's bloodlust.

 

[Maurice]

Oh come on. Kirk's "let them die" is just the anger of the moment, and you can see from the look on his face he immediately regrets saying it.

 

[Qonundrum]

I read all 14. It's hilariously valid, though many of the answers to your ''why did or didn't they''s were due to stabs at humor, drama or visual coolness. (For example, Gorkon wasn't disintegrated in order for him to grunt his last words to Kirk.)

It'd be intriguing to see you take on STAR TREK II this way, sacred cow though it may be.

Should any single episode be sacred? Nope, and one could argue that such a pedestal creates more problems in turn. It should be okay to point out nitpicks, but still appreciate the greater aspects if not the whole of the episode if there's something good being said or attempted and doesn't feel like a hollow cheat or trivialized. All that often gets lost in translation...

...not to mention the other quibble of written text versus verbal inflection applied. Take any script from "The Big Bang Theory" or any other sitcom. Without the actors' inflection and nuances, a lot of scenes could easily be interpreted in a different way. People have used descriptors such as "creepy" for some scenes.

That said, as much as the finished product is its own thing, the time and other constraints in script creation add their own universe - sometimes scripts are rewritten on the day of filming. Pretend you're an actor, having spent a week to remember lines and say them as an actual being rather than looking like you're reading a cue card like how so many commercials do. Seven days later and you get a new piece of paper, with lines crossed out and other dialogue in their places. You have anywhere between 3 hours and 3 minutes to remember them concretely... A little empathy is generally deserved, though if they have 2 years to hone a script rather than (1/2 year all while being involved in other scripts at the same time)... the objective fact remains that no movie is 100% perfect, no matter how it's presented. And there are ways to try to hide the blemishes, with some working better than others... never mind that, even with two years, writers' block is still "a thing" as well...

 

[fireproof78]

Ironically, when the Klingon Ambassador accused Kirk of such genocidal bigotry in The Voyage Home, everybody knew that was so far out of Kirk's character as to be ludicrous. But just two films later we're asked to do a 180 and believe something we already knew to be a lie.

No, we're asked to believe Kirk is angry in the moment and overreacts to basically being forced in to a diplomatic role with an enemy.

 

[Yistaan]

(spoiler for Discovery)

Spoiler

Oh come on Starfleet was pulling punches. They would've gotten Michael Burnham to meet with them if she were still around, the one who started the 2250s Klingon war.