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Spoilers There will never be Ferengi in DISCO

Both are completely valid artistic decisions.



Nope. You don't own ST and don't get to decide what is or is not a reboot.



Nope. You don't own ST and don't get to decide what is or is not a reboot.



No it doesn't.



Except the Enterprise in DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations" was redesigned. The hull plating was different. It's just that the redesign in "Trials and Tribble-ations" didn't bother you.



Same here. Hell, even the bridge rails were different!



They were very different and you are just rationalizing holding DIS to different standard.



No it doesn't.



No. Continuity is make-believe.



You are not pardoned for being irrationally threatened by change.
See, that is a different point of view. Perhaps valid, but I don't agree.

Continuity is a serious subject for all fandoms. Many fans take it very seriously. Many fans on this site will tell you that the different drawings and models of the TOS Enterprise are of different ships. I follow a continuity that is close enough that you won't notice. Which is what you get in most TV series or movie productions. They try to get things close enough so you won't notice. Does anyone really care that Luke changes which hand he is pouring the blue milk in Star Wars? No. Because it is close enough. Does anyone really care that in a few episodes they mirrored the footage or that there are slight costume changes between shots? No. Do most fans care that there are slight differences between the different TOS Enterprises (the 11 foot, 33 inch, 18 inch, 4 inch, on screen drawings, the DS9 5 foot - an exact 1/2 repilica of the 11 foot mode, or the Remastered CG model)? No. But WTF with the Enterprise in Discovery? Sorry, but that is a reboot design. Anyone who cares about continuity is calling it a reboot. And yes, fans do have a say in the matter. As they have in all things in all franchises. Things that don't fit cause endless hours of discussion to try and find a reason for it. But the remastered version of TOS adhered to the 11 foot TOS Enterprise design with variations for the two pilots and the differences in the model when they were originally produced. The HD version of TOS shows the original design in The Cage and that is canon. So WTF is the design in Discovery? It isn't canon. It has no continuity. I really don't care if it made you chuckle or not. But Discovery breaks continuity in every way that we nerdy fans have appreciated of all the prior productions. When you break continuity to that degree, you have created a reboot. It is a reboot and I don't really care what you or anyone employed by CBS has to say about it. They didn't care to put any effort into fitting in or picking a time period where their ideas would have been fresh and new. Except for the language, their Klingons could have been a brand new species set post Voyager and it would have worked the same. They deliberately broke continuity in their choice of setting and design and made it a reboot. As they say, actions speak louder than words and that is what you have, a very big FU to long time fans who care about such things. Their actions make it a reboot regardless of what they say about it.
 
For my part, I don't really mind a lot of these minor variations. I'm keeping an open mind with regard to the DIS Ferengi since we only have limited info to work with right now, but I'm not entirely convinced the new makeup is necessarily good. It's a less radical change than say, the Klingons, but I admit I don't understand why it necessarily needs to be different from the original makeup either.

* shrugs * :D

I do think DIS suffers from a number of continuity issues, both in terms of the visual aesthetics and the writing. There are things about the series I've found fairly frustrating because there are problems that seem easily avoidable (IMO) and other stuff just seems different for the goal of being different (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but not in a logical plot way. YMMV of course. ;)
I agree and call it a reboot because of all those things. There are others on this site who consider TMP a reboot because of the change to the Enterprise and the Klingons.
 
I really cannot stand how fake the outrage is and trying to find insult from production teams who are not trying to insult the supposed "long term" fans. No one told us fans to invest in continuity the way that we did so taking insult is taking it too far, in my opinion. Call it a reboot; fine. Looking to be insulted is something I find borderline ridiculous.

Continuity is important because of characters and stories, not looks.

I'll stand by that controversial opinion because people matter, not what size a model is used or the angle of pylons.
 
I hope someday someone far more detail oriented than myself will take the various bridges that were in the TOS era (TOS, In a Mirror, Relics, and Trials) and highlight all the differences that apparently were considered "good enough" while demanding DSC be 100% faithful. I would be curious as to the results.

As well as In a Mirror's canon failure in having a different badge design for the Defiant.
The variation in sets in TOS was noticeable in many ways. These slight differences in the Bridge (which they tried to hide) are acceptable. They are close. The parts have the same design aesthetic and are intended to be the same. Relics was done on a budget and they put the minimal effort into it. I have never picked up the Defiant having any serious differences. Even the Exterior CG model is a copy of the 11 foot model. The badge is barely noticable in TOS so having a new one in that episode is not enough of a difference. But you have the same design aesthetic. The intent is that it is the same and they achieved it as well as the TNG finale did in going back to the Encounter at Farpoint and not changing everything. So all these are nitpicking in a franchise that from 1964 to 2009 tried to keep things at least close. You can't call the changes in Discovery close. Most are very drastic. Compare the variations in the TOS style bridge from before to the new design in Discovery. And the uniforms and exterior of the ship. They show a deliberate decision to redesign everything. Such a deliberate redesign is usually called a reboot.

I'm a fan of several franchises. In Star Wars, for Rogue One, they went to great lengths to keep the designs the same. They used models out of the archives, they even used some original 1977 footage. They CG'd Tarkin and Leia to avoid the disconnect of recasting (some find with limited success). For Doctor Who they revisited the First Doctor's Tardis and they went to great pains to copy the original. They wisely made the decision to alter the original curtain to a full set wall. For An Adventure in Time and Space they even reshot some scenes from several episodes. Did they get them 100% exact? No, but they made the effort. They treated those like period pieces and matched the period as close as possible. That is what Star Trek did before 2009. They matched as close as possible. Discovery didn't bother. Not in sets, not in ships, not in story. I don't think anyone expected Discovery to be 100% faithful to what came before, but we expected them to at least put in the same level of effort instead of not even trying or, as it seems is the case, deliberately changing everything.
 
They treated those like period pieces and matched the period as close as possible. That is what Star Trek did before 2009. They matched as close as possible. Discovery didn't bother. Not in sets, not in ships, not in story. I don't think anyone expected Discovery to be 100% faithful to what came before, but we expected them to at least put in the same level of effort instead of not even trying or, as it seems is the case, deliberately changing everything.
Good. Star Trek is not a period piece. I don't care what Star Wars or Doctor Who did. Star Trek is not those things. Star Trek is supposed to be about our humanity, not some imagined far away galaxy, or imagined alien race who journeys across space/time.

In any case, it's not an insult. Call it a reboot, but being insulted is taking something personal that is as impersonal as the weather.
 
I really cannot stand how fake the outrage is and trying to find insult from production teams who are not trying to insult the supposed "long term" fans. No one told us fans to invest in continuity the way that we did so taking insult is taking it too far, in my opinion. Call it a reboot; fine. Looking to be insulted is something I find borderline ridiculous.

Continuity is important because of characters and stories, not looks.
Well, they didn't do a good job in character or stories either. The thing is that is matters in looks as well. If you want things to fit that is. CBS has basically revealed that the changes were motivated by profit, not creativity.

I'll stand by that controversial opinion because people matter, not what size a model is used or the angle of pylons.
TOS has become a period of Star Trek and previous productions treated it like a period piece. The way Trials and Tribbleations was written addresses that. It had a look and if you are revisiting that time you should revisit that look. If you want to just make something new, that is a reboot and you are free to do it. But changing everything and then saying it is supposed to fit in, that is a slap in the face and anyone who knows what diehard fans are like knows you don't do that. Not in any franchise. Reboots are fine, but pretending you aren't and changing everything like you are is not. Even what tiny things do get changed cause an uproar. Like the Ferengi. That is such a minor change in the scheme of what Discovery has done that I can't care about it. Just another thing that shouts reboot.

The thing I really don't understand is why calling it a reboot is controversial or even a question or even should matter. By all reasonable measures of what fits continuity vs. what is usually a reboot, Discovery is a reboot. Being a reboot gives them complete freedom, which it seems is what they have done anyway.
 
Good. Star Trek is not a period piece. I don't care what Star Wars or Doctor Who did. Star Trek is not those things. Star Trek is supposed to be about our humanity, not some imagined far away galaxy, or imagined alien race who journeys across space/time.

In any case, it's not an insult. Call it a reboot, but being insulted is taking something personal that is as impersonal as the weather.
You don't know fandom very well, if that is what you think. I still remember how insulted a large chunk of fandom was that they would make Star Trek without Kirk and Spock.
 
Well, they didn't do a good job in character or stories either. The thing is that is matters in looks as well. If you want things to fit that is. CBS has basically revealed that the changes were motivated by profit, not creativity.
Hard disagree. The characters are my favorite part. The looks secondary.
TOS has become a period of Star Trek and previous productions treated it like a period piece. The way Trials and Tribbleations was written addresses that. It had a look and if you are revisiting that time you should revisit that look. If you want to just make something new, that is a reboot and you are free to do it. But changing everything and then saying it is supposed to fit in, that is a slap in the face and anyone who knows what diehard fans are like knows you don't do that
Guess I'm not a hardcore fan. Nice to know that. I was not slapped in the face.
The thing I really don't understand is why calling it a reboot is controversial or even a question or even should matter. By all reasonable measures of what fits continuity vs. what is usually a reboot, Discovery is a reboot. Being a reboot gives them complete freedom, which it seems is what they have done anyway.
Call it reboot. I don't care. Being insulted by this is the weird part. It fits close enough for my money and is how I will treat it going forward.
You don't know fandom very well, if that is what you think. I still remember how insulted a large chunk of fandom was that they would make Star Trek without Kirk and Spock.
You're right; I don't. I was only insulted, mocked and made fun of for liking TOS instead of TNG. No reason for me to know what fandom is like at all.
 
Continuity is a serious subject for all fandoms.

This is just factually inaccurate. Plenty of fandoms have a majority of members who do not take continuity seriously. Doctor Who famously plays fast and loose with continuity all the time; other properties feature constant new versions of the story that are mutually exclusive. Fans of musical theatre productions usually have no problem with new productions of classic shows with radically different sets, costumes, acting choices, etc.

Many fans on this site will tell you that the different drawings and models of the TOS Enterprise are of different ships.

Are you referring to the reuse of footage shot for "The Cage" throughout the series, with the spikes on the warp nacelles and the lack of bulbs at the back? I've never met anyone who tried to argue that the use of the two contradictory versions of the TOS Enterprise model meant we were seeing two different ships.

I follow a continuity that is close enough that you won't notice. Which is what you get in most TV series or movie productions. They try to get things close enough so you won't notice. Does anyone really care that Luke changes which hand he is pouring the blue milk in Star Wars? No. Because it is close enough. Does anyone really care that in a few episodes they mirrored the footage or that there are slight costume changes between shots? No. Do most fans care that there are slight differences between the different TOS Enterprises (the 11 foot, 33 inch, 18 inch, 4 inch, on screen drawings, the DS9 5 foot - an exact 1/2 repilica of the 11 foot mode, or the Remastered CG model)? No. But WTF with the Enterprise in Discovery? Sorry, but that is a reboot design.

My problem with this argument is it suggests that there is a degree of variation that can be accepted via suspension of disbelief and a degree of variation that cannot. But where does that border lie? How can that border be universal?

It's better to just err on the side of suspension of disbelief.

Anyone who cares about continuity is calling it a reboot.

You can care about continuity in the sense of finding reconciling contradictions a fun game, yet not call it a reboot. That's what I do. I mean, DIS Season Two is set something like eight years before TOS. Who's to say that the Enterprise didn't undergo a refit between series?

And yes, fans do have a say in the matter.

I mean, this goes back to "Death of the Author" vs. Authorial Intent. Fans get a say in how they interpret the text. But they don't have a say in what the text actually is. The text is that DIS and TOS are set in the same continuity.

Now if you want to say, "I acknowledge it's all set in the same continuity and that the creators just want us to suspend our disbelief, but for my personal enjoyment purposes, I pretend DIS is a reboot," that's fine. That's legit. Because that would be acknowledging a subjective interpretation of the text that contradicts the text for your personal enjoyment. But trying to actually re-write the text -- to claim that the text is that DIS and TOS are in a different continuity when the text is clearly the opposite -- is just ridiculous.

Fans get to interpret the text. They don't get to write the text.

Things that don't fit cause endless hours of discussion to try and find a reason for it.

Or until fandom just decides to stop acknowledging the contradiction and collectively agrees to pretend it all fits together irrelevant of the text. "James R. Kirk," the "time barrier," the lack of women in the service, and "UESPA" vs "Starfleet" are all clear contradictions within TOS or between TOS and later ST that have no actual explanations, but fandom just squints and pretends the contradictions don't exist.

But the remastered version of TOS adhered to the 11 foot TOS Enterprise design with variations for the two pilots and the differences in the model when they were originally produced. The HD version of TOS shows the original design in The Cage and that is canon. So WTF is the design in Discovery? It isn't canon.

Yes, it is canon. Because "canon" is the body of intellectual property owned by someone upon which derivative works are based. The "canon" of the Sherlock Holmes series consists of all of the novels and short stories about Sherlock Holmes written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle -- even if some of those stories contradict one-another. So it is with the DIS version of the 1701. It is canon -- whether you like it or not.

You don't get a say in that. Only ST's owner, CBSViacom, gets a say in that. If CBSViacom decides to de-canonize DIS tomorrow, that is their right as the owners of ST. But you and I? We get a say in how we interpret the discontinuity within canon, but we don't get a say in the existence of the discontinuity within canon or in what constitutes canon. The canon is defined by CBSViacom and no one else.

But Discovery breaks continuity in every way that we nerdy fans have appreciated of all the prior productions.

People said the same damn thing about ENT, and the same damn thing about TNG, and the same damn thing about TMP.

When you break continuity to that degree, you have created a reboot.

No, because you as the creator get to decide that it's all the same setting even if there are contradictions. How many children had Lady Macbeth? The text contradicts itself, but that doesn't mean Act I of Macbeth takes place in a different universe than Act V.

Remember: This is all make-believe. It's all the same setting if the creator says so. The contradictions only affects future stories if the creator lets them.

It is a reboot and I don't really care what you or anyone employed by CBS has to say about it.

Once again: If you said, "I personally treat it as a reboot for my own interpretation purposes but acknowledge that the text indicates it is not," that would be legit. Claiming that the text says something it does not is not reasonable behavior.

Saying, "DIS is a reboot of ST because of the discontinuities between it and prior ST installments, and I don't care what you or CBS says" is about as rational as saying, "Act V of Macbeth is a reboot of the universe seen in Act I because of the continuity error over how many children Lady Macbeth had, and I don't care what you or William Shakespeare says about it."

You can say it all you want, but it's just not actually present in the text.

They didn't care to put any effort into fitting in or picking a time period where their ideas would have been fresh and new.

This too is factually inaccurate. There are numerous elements of DIS that were carefully selected to reference or duplicate elements from TOS -- the sounds of equipment, for instance, or the design of the Federation logo (meant to resemble that seen in TMP and in Franz Josef's The Star Fleet Technical Manual).

What you actually mean, and would be factually accurate to say, is, "I do not like the use of a different design aesthetic from what I had imagined the world of TOS ten years earlier would have looked like."

Except for the language, their Klingons could have been a brand new species set post Voyager and it would have worked the same.

You know, here's the funny thing: You and I have similar creative impulses here. I agree that the basic stories of DIS S1 and S2 could have been set in a post-VOY setting, and I would have preferred to do so because I subjectively would have preferred to keep continuity a bit tighter. (The differences this would have necessitated would have been minor -- Michael's parents would have needed to be killed in a Klingon raid during, say, the Federation-Klingon War of 2372 seen in DS9 Seasons Four and Five, for instance; Sarek and Spock would have had to have been a different Vulcan family; Pike would have needed to be a different captain; etc. But the meat of the stories would have been the same.)

But where we part ways is this: I understand that my creative impulses and aesthetic tastes are subjective and cannot reasonably be binding upon artists that have different tastes than myself. The show is being made with the goal of appealing to millions of people, not just my "has-been-a-Trekkie-since-I-was-9-and-can-recite-the-history-of-the-ST-Universe-from-memory" self.

They deliberately broke continuity in their choice of setting and design and made it a reboot.

They deliberately introduced minor discontinuities into the text, yes.

That does not make it a reboot.

As they say, actions speak louder than words and that is what you have, a very big FU to long time fans who care about such things.

Honestly, anyone so anal-retentive as to interpret an artist having different subjective aesthetics and creative impulses from themselves as a "very big F.U." deserves to receive just such an insult.
 
Well, they didn't do a good job in character or stories either. The thing is that is matters in looks as well. If you want things to fit that is. CBS has basically revealed that the changes were motivated by profit, not creativity.

This is pure nonsense. Do you really think CBSViacom gives a shit if they use a different Klingon makeup design? Of course they don't. Decisions like that are made as a direct result of artistic aesthetics. Bryan Fuller -- a longtime staff writer on VOY and writer for DS9! -- is the one who first made the decision to change the Klingon makeup, because his artistic instinct was that they needed to be scarier. I don't happen to agree with his aesthetic decision -- I would have preferred to keep something like the Westmore or TUC designs. But that doesn't make his decision less legitimate or based on "profit, not creativity."

TOS has become a period of Star Trek and previous productions treated it like a period piece. The way Trials and Tribbleations was written addresses that. It had a look and if you are revisiting that time you should revisit that look.

Re-creating the look of TOS is your subjective artistic preference. It is mine too. That does not mean that our subjective artistic preferences are superior to someone with different tastes.

If you want to just make something new, that is a reboot and you are free to do it. But changing everything and then saying it is supposed to fit in,

Is a completely legitimate creative decision that plenty of other franchises have gone with.

that is a slap in the face

No, it is not. And to claim it is "a slap in the face" would be to display a startling level of egotism and lack of self-awareness.

and anyone who knows what diehard fans are like knows you don't do that.

Five me five "diehard fans" and I'll give you fifteen contradictory opinions.

Not in any franchise.

In 2010, Doctor Who literally changed the actor playing the Doctor, got rid of every single supporting actor except one, totally changed the TARDIS set with no explanation. It was a total revamp that threw out the entire design aesthetic of Seasons 1-4 out the door. And then they did it again in 2017.

Fandom did not behave as though it were a slap in the face.

In 2008, The Dark Knight was set in the same continuity as Batman Begins, but the entire depiction of Gotham City was completely different. There were no more fantastical elements like the Narrows or the system of retro-futurist elevated rails that all converged at Wayne Enterprises HQ; instead Gotham was just a thinly-veiled Chicago with no major changes. Fandom did not care.

In 2015, Daredevil and Jessica Jones premiered. They were set in New York City of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, yet there were no depictions of Avengers Tower in any of the scenes set in, or shots of, Midtown Manhattan. Fandom did not care.

Agents of SHIELD was set in the MCU as well, but it never acknowledged the city-shaking events of Daredevil Season One, and its later seasons completely ignored the Snappening seen at the end of Infinity War. Fandom did not care.

Reboots are fine, but pretending you aren't and changing everything like you are is not.

It's totally fine. The only people who care are a small number of folks on the internet who do not have respect for differing artistic tastes.

The thing I really don't understand is why calling it a reboot is controversial

Because while interpretation of a text is subjective, the actual contents of the text are a matter of objective fact.

You don't get to claim that Act V and Act I of Macbeth are factually separate continuities because of the continuity error over how many children the Macbeths had. It's not your text to edit. You can say, "I personally treat Act V as a reboot in my head because that continuity error is so big," but you can't say, "They're separate universes."

By all reasonable measures of what fits continuity vs. what is usually a reboot, Discovery is a reboot. Being a reboot gives them complete freedom, which it seems is what they have done anyway.

A reboot is not defined by continuity. A reboot is defined by whether or not they're separate texts as defined by the author.
 
I admit I don't understand why it necessarily needs to be different from the original makeup either.

For the simple reason that Michael Westmore is no longer doing the make up and new people are and it's unfair to expect them to slavishly copy prosthetic make up from 30 years ago and not want to use their artistic license and be creative. It's like asking a band to cover a song but wanting it to sound exactly the same. That's not going to happen.

I do think DIS suffers from a number of continuity issues, both in terms of the visual aesthetics and the writing. There are things about the series I've found fairly frustrating because there are problems that seem easily avoidable (IMO) and other stuff just seems different for the goal of being different (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but not in a logical plot way.

It really doesn't. Just replace DIS with ENT and you're just repeating an argument I heard 20 years ago.
 
This is pure nonsense. Do you really think CBSViacom gives a shit if they use a different Klingon makeup design? Of course they don't. Decisions like that are made as a direct result of artistic aesthetics. Bryan Fuller -- a longtime staff writer on VOY and writer for DS9! -- is the one who first made the decision to change the Klingon makeup, because his artistic instinct was that they needed to be scarier. I don't happen to agree with his aesthetic decision -- I would have preferred to keep something like the Westmore or TUC designs. But that doesn't make his decision less legitimate or based on "profit, not creativity."



Re-creating the look of TOS is your subjective artistic preference. It is mine too. That does not mean that our subjective artistic preferences are superior to someone with different tastes.



Is a completely legitimate creative decision that plenty of other franchises have gone with.



No, it is not. And to claim it is "a slap in the face" would be to display a startling level of egotism and lack of self-awareness.



Five me five "diehard fans" and I'll give you fifteen contradictory opinions.



In 2010, Doctor Who literally changed the actor playing the Doctor, got rid of every single supporting actor except one, totally changed the TARDIS set with no explanation. It was a total revamp that threw out the entire design aesthetic of Seasons 1-4 out the door. And then they did it again in 2017.

Fandom did not behave as though it were a slap in the face.

In 2008, The Dark Knight was set in the same continuity as Batman Begins, but the entire depiction of Gotham City was completely different. There were no more fantastical elements like the Narrows or the system of retro-futurist elevated rails that all converged at Wayne Enterprises HQ; instead Gotham was just a thinly-veiled Chicago with no major changes. Fandom did not care.

In 2015, Daredevil and Jessica Jones premiered. They were set in New York City of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, yet there were no depictions of Avengers Tower in any of the scenes set in, or shots of, Midtown Manhattan. Fandom did not care.

Agents of SHIELD was set in the MCU as well, but it never acknowledged the city-shaking events of Daredevil Season One, and its later seasons completely ignored the Snappening seen at the end of Infinity War. Fandom did not care.



It's totally fine. The only people who care are a small number of folks on the internet who do not have respect for differing artistic tastes.



Because while interpretation of a text is subjective, the actual contents of the text are a matter of objective fact.

You don't get to claim that Act V and Act I of Macbeth are factually separate continuities because of the continuity error over how many children the Macbeths had. It's not your text to edit. You can say, "I personally treat Act V as a reboot in my head because that continuity error is so big," but you can't say, "They're separate universes."



A reboot is not defined by continuity. A reboot is defined by whether or not they're separate texts as defined by the author.
Have to disagree on every point. Minor continuity mistakes in a production and totally ignoring previous continuity to create something new just because you want to is where the line between something you write off vs. something that you can't ignore lies. Discovery has its own minor continuity mistakes and you ignore them. But if between this season and next, in the middle of a two part cliffhanger season ending story, for no other reason than because they want to, they redesign the Discovery and the uniforms and everything else but just continue the story, you would notice and go WTF. That is how I feel with them inserting this between The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before. Frankly my opinion of Discovery is based on the first season. I haven't wanted to watch more. I tried the second season and Pike made me want to watch more but the rest was just meh. I consider it the 2nd worst Star Trek made in the last 57 years. The worst being Into Darkness. The entire concept belongs in the 25th century, not the 23rd. The new Klingons should be some new species. It all could have been done better if they had been more creative. but the over large bridge and so many other aspects just don't make sense in the 23rd century by what we see on Enterprise and TOS. They set it there because the Axanar fan series was going to do exactly what they started out doing. Have you seen Prelude to Axanar? All Discovery did was set the war 10 years later and add the spore drive. So yeah, CBS was in this for profit and ruined the fan productions as a result. Anyway, it is a reboot and fans who care about continuity and canon know it because of how badly Discovery handles both. For a reboot it is okay, but there are so many issues if it isn't a reboot that it isn't worth listing them. Oh, and they did change the Klingons between season 1 and 2 without a single comment on them because the season 1 Klingons were too different for nearly every fan.

I am looking forward to Strange New Worlds as a reboot of The Cage.
 
They set it there because the Axanar fan series was going to do exactly what they started out doing. Have you seen Prelude to Axanar? All Discovery did was set the war 10 years later and add the spore drive. So yeah, CBS was in this for profit and ruined the fan productions as a result. .

The only thing that ruined fan productions was Alec Peters. CBS had no problem with Axanar or other fan productions, until Alec Peters tried making money from an intellectual property he didn't own. One of the rules for fan productions was that they could use the characters, uniforms, ships etc.. as long they didn't try to make a profit from it. That was very generous thing for CBS to do, which they didn't have to and Peters ruined it for everyone.

Axanar was a good fan production, but it suffered from most if not all the same problems that people claimed Discovery suffers from. First and foremost being that it's main character is a genuine Mary Sue in the truest sense of the term.
 
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They set it there because the Axanar fan series was going to do exactly what they started out doing. Have you seen Prelude to Axanar? All Discovery did was set the war 10 years later and add the spore drive. So yeah, CBS was in this for profit and ruined the fan productions as a result.
This is so wrong. Axanar was ruined by its own greed. BS top to bottom. Dislike CBS all you want but spreading manure is unhelpful.
 
It's detachable. They're storing it in Discovery's turbocoaster void, because it's the only space big enough to house it.

It's started a bit of an arms (cocks) race, with the Klingons providing a provisional plus-sized pair of plucky plastic pop-on penises per person to produce a perfect parity of pricks.

I remember that song.

I’m seeing a Blackadder II crossover episode…

If Christopher Lloyd can be a Klingon Captain then I see no reason why Rowan Atkinson can’t do it too.

:D
King Missile and Blackadder both popped into my mind when reading Ghost of Tuvix's post. :lol:
 
For the simple reason that Michael Westmore is no longer doing the make up and new people are and it's unfair to expect them to slavishly copy prosthetic make up from 30 years ago and not want to use their artistic license and be creative. It's like asking a band to cover a song but wanting it to sound exactly the same. That's not going to happen.

There's nothing wrong with wanting modern artists to be creative and do their own thing. But that's not always a guarantee that the end result will be a hit. It's kind of like how when The Force Awakens came out, one of the valid criticisms is why a lot of elements were copied from the earlier films, and why the First Order is apparently the next Empire but the Rebel Alliance/New Republic doesn't seem to be acting with the same amount of effort to keep the threat from returning. There are missing chunks of story that could have greatly improved things and provide a logical reason for such a development. Because there are ways to make it work, just not as it was done.

It's true that many bands like to tweak stuff when they do a cover, because obviously doing the exact same thing is not ideal. But if you change too many things, the song no longer sounds the same. Sometimes I've found it interesting to compare different versions of the same track by the same artist, as they differ between live performances or singles relative to album versions. Sometimes the differences are significant and one variant seems inherently better than another, or both might seem good in their own ways.

It really doesn't. Just replace DIS with ENT and you're just repeating an argument I heard 20 years ago.

Perhaps we can agree to disagree, then, because for myself I don't think the problems are quite the same. :) At least not from my own perspective, as someone who enjoyed both shows to a degree. I do think ENT had issues with continuity at times, but I think many of its issues were due to executive meddling. They wanted "essential" Trek elements added in for marketing purposes, so now we had an Enterprise that seemingly never got referenced for some reason later on. VOY also had the problem of the execs wanting it to be TNG 2.0, because they understood that TNG had been successful. But they failed to appreciate some of the ways it became successful, like having good writing and acting in the better episodes.

With DIS, I feel like the cast is really good and some of the newer concepts are good too - just not how they're being executed with a degree of haphazardness. If Ariam suffered injuries similar to those Pike eventually sustains, and the technology exists to repair her, why wouldn't that tech be available to help him? I get that the producers want to nod to his status in TOS, but I don't understand the DIS logic to that outcome being "forced" on Pike.

By the same token, I don't get why the pre-TOS Klingon monks on Boreth have a cache of literal time crystals that would seem a huge boon to the Empire itself, yet their descendants in the 24th century don't have access to them? They could "merely" create a biological clone of Kahless? And why would Pike taking a crystal mean his future damage was unavoidable? To me this is just sloppy writing. :p

I admit, I've never really liked the mushroom drive concept and I consider it one of the sillier (and seemingly random - maybe there's a context I'm less aware of). :rommie: I sort of wish it didn't exist, but that's just me. :angel: Having some glaring design flaws (like the turbolift caverns on both the Discovery and the Enterprise and the seemingly open space that doesn't fit the exterior hull) doesn't help, IMO. YMMV of course. ;)
 
Makeup effects have changed so much since the 00s and especially the 80s that it's foolish to expect them to stick to older designs. Especially since everything is filmed in HD now which shows details that wouldn't show under standard definition. Just seeing TNG in the HD remasters shows a lot of lines where the latex appliance ends and skin starts. It's not that it's flawed, it was just the reality of production and maintaining the comfort and expression of the actors. The current shows have done an excellent job of allowing greater detail and more biological realism while maintaining the original design. Based on the artists who are designing the new alien appearances, they're likely going for maintaining consistency with the original while also showing that not all members of a species look identical. Worf went through several forehead designs and a lot of the aliens were fairly uniform in appearance. This doesn't make sense biologically. Not all humans look the same. We have a wide variety of appearances even among races and we're not very genetically diverse compared to other species on own planet. Alien races would be the same. This captain looks like a ferengi, just not the ferengies we've seen. Just like how any one human doesn't look identical to any other human unless they're identical twins.
 
Frankly my opinion of Discovery is based on the first season. I haven't wanted to watch more.
Then you don't know as much about DSC as you think you do. Watch the second and third seasons.

Most people who stopped watching a show three years ago wouldn't still be complaining about what it's doing in its fourth. What would you say if someone in 1995 complained about the fourth season of DS9 but hadn't seen it since the first? And no, you can't say "But that's different!" DSC changed more from the first season to where it is now than DS9 did from the first season to where it was at this point.

The entire concept belongs in the 25th century, not the 23rd.
That's great, but DSC doesn't take place in the 23rd Century anymore. The show has moved on from that, and so should you. As it seems like that's 90% of what you don't like about the show. Or at the very least it's in much larger proportion compared to everything else you're complaining about. Why go on and on and on about something that no longer applies?

EDITED TO ADD (because I don't think you actually know): DISCOVERY NOW TAKES PLACE IN THE 32ND CENTURY.

There, just in case you missed it.
 
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