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why can't we cloak?

RobertScorpio

RobertScorpio

Pariah
Ummm..can someone explain to me why we would have ever entered into that stupid agreement in the first place? Could you imagine if in the real world the USA signed a treaty that allowed the Russians/Chinese (Romulans/Klingons) to fly around in invisble planes but we couldn't because...we had better defense system? Huh????

Okay, I know some of you must agree with the treaty. So please tell me....as Shatner would say....."WHY" (arms reached out,elbows crunched to the side of my gut)

now for a cheap plug..come read our story over in the FANFIC section..The Federation has lauched a ship to save endangered animals through out the galaxy..the USS ARK. Captained by THOMAS RIKER and his kick butt Nausicaan first officer Bak'ooth..ONLY ON ABC-TV!!! STAR TREK; NAISSANCE
 
Because although Gene Roddenberry had passed away by the time "The Pegasus" was produced, he made it clear that the Feds didn't use cloaks because the heroes weren't supposed to be "sneaky." That's a fair view, but it doesn't mesh with how cloaks have come to be portrayed on Trek - as the futuristic version of modern stealth systems.

I've never been fond of the rule either, especially since the alliance with the Klingons let the Feds easily bypass it. That doesn't mean there aren't valid reasons why the Feds might choose to follow such a treaty term, but they need to be elaborated on.
 
Yeah, I think that part of the Treaty of Algernon was a pretty dumb thing to do on the Federation's part. The only saving grace would be if it was put in as a limiting factor on a party that had started a conflict and then lost. (kinda like limiting the post-war Japanese military)
 
Corran Horn said:
Yeah, I think that part of the Treaty of Algernon was a pretty dumb thing to do on the Federation's part. The only saving grace would be if it was put in as a limiting factor on a party that had started a conflict and then lost. (kinda like limiting the post-war Japanese military)
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Given that the Treaty of Algernon was the cornerstone for nearly a century of peaceful relations with a neighboring empire which had previously been seen as so threatening that ships of the line were considered expendable if it avoided starting a new conflict, it seems like a rather good tradeoff.

And, as it seems everyone forgets, we haven't been told what the Romulans gave up in exchange for this Federation concession -- or what the Federation got to do in trade for not developing cloaking devices. Suppose (to make up an example) you had to decide between developing cloaking devices and developing replicators -- I'd pick the replicators: better for the economy and therefore almost certainly the better choice for a free society.

Obviously, it looked at the time like it was better to make this agreement than to fight over the issue, and it's remained a roughly balanced trade since then, since, again, nearly a century of peaceful relations with a menacing power is not to be sneezed at or lightly dismissed.
 
As a plot device I guess. To make it harder for the Enterprise and particularly Voyager to hide and sneak passed dangerous ships and situations.

Too bad they didn't produce refractive shielding, and it would be better too since they'd have their shields up at the same time too.
 
I'm thinking it was the sacrifice the Federation had to make in face of the Klingons and Romulans agreeing not to further develop cloaking technology where a cloaked ship could fire while under its cloak. Why else would Change's ship have been the only one?

Considering that, it's not that huge of a deal.
 
Nebusj said:
Corran Horn said:
Yeah, I think that part of the Treaty of Algernon was a pretty dumb thing to do on the Federation's part. The only saving grace would be if it was put in as a limiting factor on a party that had started a conflict and then lost. (kinda like limiting the post-war Japanese military)
Click to expand...
Given that the Treaty of Algernon was the cornerstone for nearly a century of peaceful relations with a neighboring empire which had previously been seen as so threatening that ships of the line were considered expendable if it avoided starting a new conflict, it seems like a rather good tradeoff.

And, as it seems everyone forgets, we haven't been told what the Romulans gave up in exchange for this Federation concession -- or what the Federation got to do in trade for not developing cloaking devices. Suppose (to make up an example) you had to decide between developing cloaking devices and developing replicators -- I'd pick the replicators: better for the economy and therefore almost certainly the better choice for a free society.
Click to expand...

A 24th century guns or butter? Could be.
 
Dorothy_Zbornak said:
I'm thinking it was the sacrifice the Federation had to make in face of the Klingons and Romulans agreeing not to further develop cloaking technology where a cloaked ship could fire while under its cloak. Why else would Change's ship have been the only one?

Considering that, it's not that huge of a deal.
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Considering that one of the things they talked about in The Neutral Zone was how the Romulans might have improved the cloaking device, it's clear that no one would trust them to keep their word on that. One of the other things the Treaty of Algeron did was redefine the borders of the neutral zone (mentioned in TATV to retcon Data's mention in The Defector that crossing TNZ violated the Treaty of Algeron). Maybe it redefined it in favor of the Federation?

If the Treaty of Algeron is related to the Tomed Incident, it might have been a border dispute. Tomed would be an area that Vulcans had previously been to (specifically a Romulan agent disguised as a Vulcan had been there with T'Pol), so it could have been part of Federation space (but near Romulan space). Maybe the Rommies gave up their claim to the area in exchange for the Federation giving up their use of cloaks (cloaking devices at the time had a visible distortion and you could even have a torpedo track it's plasma exhaust, so it might not have been seen as a reasonable compromise).

Not that I've thought about The Treaty of Algeron at all or anything like that :rommie:
 
Any idea why the Feds would enter into an agreement with the Romulans for cloaking technology, while the Klingons were already allies. The common purpose and enemy would seem to dictate that they be the ones to share the techmology with the Federation, rather than bitter rivals.
 
Two possible reasons. The most obvious reason is that the Federation has a treaty with the Romulans preventing them from using cloaks. If they don't want to violate the treaty, they need to make sure the Romulans agree and provide them with the cloak.

The alternative explanation (which my biased self prefers) is that Romulan cloaks are simply better than Klingon ones. So it would make sense to get the best when dealing with a powerful unknown enemy.
 
If the Federation can't cloak, what are they doing on Mentaka IV?
They are violating privacy by observing people through a "duck blind". I don't know about you, but, I'd be pretty ticked if I were under observation and wasn't informed about it. I would not care if the activity was mundane or the observer's intentions were good. The Feds seem to be the most patronizing in all of the Alpha Quadrant in this respect.

So I ask you isn't what the Feds do on non-Warp planets, sneaking around?
 
RobertScorpio said:
Ummm..can someone explain to me why we would have ever entered into that stupid agreement in the first place? Could you imagine if in the real world the USA signed a treaty that allowed the Russians/Chinese (Romulans/Klingons) to fly around in invisble planes but we couldn't because...we had better defense system? Huh????

Okay, I know some of you must agree with the treaty. So please tell me....as Shatner would say....."WHY" (arms reached out,elbows crunched to the side of my gut)
Click to expand...

From a story perspective, they might have thought that letting the main characters become invisible would make them too powerful, limited dramatic potential.

When they did allow for it on DS9, it was limited in such a way that it was only really used against the Dominion, and it wasn't always effective against them.

I agree that the treaty was kinda dumb. They could have just kept it as a Romulan/Klingon trade secret that the Federation never figured out for themselves.

I guess they could have salvaged the treaty idea if they came up with some big Romulan concession to justify it, but that doesn't seem likely now.
 
The Mintaka incident was an unintentional violation of the Prime Directive, and the Ba'Ku were a warp-capable civilisation, therefore there was no violation of the PD - except for the whole, trying to steal their planet thing, but that's a totally different violation.

And in both cases it would appear the Feds were not using cloaking technology, but rather holographic systems to hide their presence. Though I wonder if that extended to the funky invisable red suits? Probably, seeing as soon as the holo-emiters went down so did the suits.
 
Years ago a friend wrote a story where it turns out that the reason the Romulans have cloaking technology is because they utilize a sentient life form and incorporate them into their claking device. Without the life form, cloaking devices aren't possible.
Obviously this has been completely contradicted in canon Trek over the years (this was WAAAAAAAY back. 1989 or something.) But it would give a plausable reason why the Federation would refuse to develop cloaks.
Of course, it doesn't really apply here.
 
I must say though, I've never liked the idea of federation ships cloaking anyway. I wish "Enterprise Incident" hadn't established that the cloaking device was just a tacky table lamp that can be plugged into any ship. I think it would have been an interesting contrast to have ships that cloak designed and built around that purpose at the expense of other things like science labs, amenities for the crew, etc. In this regard, Federation ships generally would not have cloaks because they don't feel it is worth the sacrifice of other systems. They would also have a small selection of cloaking ships for occasional covert operations and tactical assignments.

Of course that's not what we got.
 
As was already mentioned, we don't know what the Romulans gave up in order for the Federation to stop work on cloaking technology, but it most likely something pretty big. And, as also mentioned above, it did keep the peace between the Federation and the Romulan Empire for a good long while. So in that respect the Treaty was a success.

Now let's speculate a little. Federation sensors have been able to penetrate Romulan an Klingon cloaking technology. Geordi made a reference to old Klingon cloaks not being good at hiding some radiation wave lengths. To know that, at some point in the past Federation sensors were able to pierce the cloak. In The Neutral Zone the sensors are catching fleeting glimpses of something near the Enterprise, but cannot pinpoint the location. I would think that this implies that the Federation is indeed experimenting with cloaking technology. Not on a scale as large as what was done with the Pegasus, but something to test their sensors on.

I think that at some secret Startfleet complex cloaking devices are tested and sensors are being designed to penetrate cloakes of different types.

What the Federation should continue using though is the phasing ability the Pegasus had. That would have been a major shift in power to the Federation. Ships that could fly into enemy space, still be seen, but unable to be touched by any weapon. Or even torpedoes that can phase through a ships shields and then become solid and explode while deep inside it's target. That is a greater weapon than any cloak.
 
We're too pretty to cloak. Why would we want to hide ourselves from the rest of the universe when we're so good-looking?
 
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