In science fiction and fantasy we always work with "degrees of realism". Throwing it completely out or dismissing it as an argument only because the universe isn't 100% realistic is, imho, like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Is the bridge at a funny angle?
- Thread starter Mike Doyle
- Start date
In science fiction and fantasy we always work with "degrees of realism". Throwing it completely out or dismissing it as an argument only because the universe isn't 100% realistic is, imho, like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Form follows function. None of the rest of the Enterprise is cockeyed. From a design standpoint we've not seen any species design ships that are not uniform, symmetrical, or everything facing a logical orientation. The only exceptions that come to mind are some Dominion ships were asymmetrical and so was the ship used by the rebellious Borg led by Hugh
You might be thinking of the Breen?
That was when the saucer was over 20 decks at its thickest. After the 11 deck saucer thickness retcon after the middle of Season 1, my head canon is to divide by 2.5 for those early episodes. For example, Deck 12 is really Deck 5 and Deck 14 is really Deck 6, etc...Deck 14 was large enough for Doctor Van Gelder to run around and almost evade capture in Dagger Of The Mind
<My logic: visually, the top three decks in the top blister are always three decks regardless of the number of decks in the saucer. At 11 decks, the saucer sans blister is 8 decks thick. If 23 decks, the saucer is 20 decks thick. Retcon ratio is 20/8 = 2.5.>
As for the minute long turbolift trip to Deck 2:
1. Since the Bridge requires a turbolift car be ready at all times, one and probably more cars are parked on Deck 2 to replace cars that leave the Bridge. I also purpose that there is a security office close to the turbolift on Deck 2, so, one car is ready at all times for a quick ride to the Bridge. So, to get to Deck 2 from the Bridge, an empty car needs to be cleared out of the way probably down to a lower deck. This could cause a slight delay, but not one minute.
2. Deck 2 has "secure" VIP quarters, so, Spock knew one or two security men would be waiting when they arrive at Deck 2. Spock throttled the car speed to its lowest setting to have a private minute with the Romulan Commander.
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!
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the haphazardly installed cloaking device was causing malfunctions to minor systems. Not canon but it explains it!That was when the saucer was over 20 decks at its thickest. After the 11 deck saucer thickness retcon after the middle of Season 1, my head canon is to divide by 2.5 for those early episodes. For example, Deck 12 is really Deck 5 and Deck 14 is really Deck 6, etc...
<My logic: visually, the top three decks in the top blister are always three decks regardless of the number of decks in the saucer. At 11 decks, the saucer sans blister is 8 decks thick. If 23 decks, the saucer is 20 decks thick. Retcon ratio is 20/8 = 2.5.>
As for the minute long turbolift trip to Deck 2:
1. Since the Bridge requires a turbolift car be ready at all times, one and probably more cars are parked on Deck 2 to replace cars that leave the Bridge. I also purpose that there is a security office close to the turbolift on Deck 2, so, one car is ready at all times for a quick ride to the Bridge. So, to get to Deck 2 from the Bridge, an empty car needs to be cleared out of the way probably down to a lower deck. This could cause a slight delay, but not one minute.
2. Deck 2 has "secure" VIP quarters, so, Spock knew one or two security men would be waiting when they arrive at Deck 2. Spock throttled the car speed to its lowest setting to have a private minute with the Romulan Commander.
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!
Ah, another issue with TEI. No, actually, I'd prefer that the high-ranking enemy military officer be placed in the brig. Treated humanely and according to Federation laws, of course. But the brig (as she herself suggests), and together with the two members of her command who are still there. Particularly since she was probably stronger than anyone from Starfleet on the ship save Spock and had just ordered her subordinate to destroy said ship and herself too. Not that TEI takes the time to explore that or undertake any other interesting Romulan character development. At least Kirk and Scott took the situation seriously. What a waste of an idea.
D'oh. You are correct. But a Tosk would know.
When taken as a whole, this really is the best argument against an offset bridge as NONE of the other ship seen onscreen have anything but a forward facing one. For the TOS-E to be the only exception there would have a to be a really good reason, which we are sadly lacking.
Ockham's razor would suggest it faces forward.
That method does deal with the single mention of Deck 14 and two of Deck 12 but in the process puts Recreation Room 6 (from Charlie X) on Deck 1, an engineering section (possibly even phaser crews) on Deck 2 in The Corbomite Manoeuvre and the fights reported by Uhura (in The Naked Time) on Deck 2 AND Deck 2 - why would she say that?After the 11 deck saucer thickness retcon after the middle of Season 1, my head canon is to divide by 2.5 for those early episodes. For example, Deck 12 is really Deck 5 and Deck 14 is really Deck 6, etc...
I know that that's likely the real world reason, but we have to deal with the body of episodes as they were presented.
Other explanations I've seen include treating the saucer and the secondary hull as distinct vessels for the purposes of separation (thus each having their own decks 1-11), or having the dorsal as an uninhabited structural section (meaning that the secondary hull starts at Deck 12) or simply reinterpreting the dialogue to mean something else (my least favourite option FWIW)
And you tooMERRY CHRISTMAS to all!
One can make the argument, based on the way it filmed, that the Constellation's Aux Control also doesn't face forward.
Lurch sends them starboard:
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_328.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_330.jpg
Then both men are aft of their previous position:
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_332.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_333.jpg
And of course when the Planet Killer unloads on the E, and she heels over to starboard, people sure seem to end up where you would expect if the bridge is rotated. Sulu to the right of the Captain's chair instead of in the Navigator's lap, LOL.
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_168.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_172.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_175.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_176.jpg
As for Occam's Razor, if you are in a room with no windows then your orientation does not matter, as you are flying the ship solely with instrumentation.
edits in bold
Lurch sends them starboard:
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_328.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_330.jpg
Then both men are aft of their previous position:
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_332.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_333.jpg
And of course when the Planet Killer unloads on the E, and she heels over to starboard, people sure seem to end up where you would expect if the bridge is rotated. Sulu to the right of the Captain's chair instead of in the Navigator's lap, LOL.
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_168.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_172.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_175.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x06/doomsdaymachine_176.jpg
As for Occam's Razor, if you are in a room with no windows then your orientation does not matter, as you are flying the ship solely with instrumentation.
edits in bold
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In a vaguely similar "thing" I learned recently, the engine rooms of the USS Discovery are "behind" the warp cores. The view of those CG pipe cathedrals are towards the front of the ship.
Originally it was, but by now I’m not sure even the writers remember
FJ's plans and the tech manual aren't "canonical" so, nope.
Here's a simple solution that also explains how there can be a fresh car in place seconds after another one leaves:
Excellent.
Those are good examples, although of course we have no idea what manoeuvres the Enterprise is doing while the crew are throwing themselves around the place
For something a little more explicit, we could look at Journey To Babel and the scene where Kirk orders ship's power cut first to the port side and then to starboard, in order to lure in the enemy vessel. Studio lighting is switched off in various areas to represent this.
Curiously, when Kirk orders the port side power cut the lights go off above Uhura's station which if the turbolift was on the centreline ought not to be the case. Here is the sequence:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x10hd/journeytobabelhd1226.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x10hd/journeytobabelhd1227.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x10hd/journeytobabelhd1241.jpg
My use of Occam's Razor was not in reference to the design of the TOS bridge, but to all the other known bridge designs in Star Trek. Up until recently none of them had a forward viewscreen window and ALL of them faced forward. Without a good in-universe reason to explain why the TOS bridge didn't, I simply meant that we could do worse than assume it matched the others in orientation.
In my second part on the "logic", I tried to explain that Decks 1-3 are not affected or changed and probably Deck 4, too, but Decks 5 thru 23 minus the 3 top Decks are divided by 2.5 to give a proportional height within the saucer. Then to get the new Deck number, add the 3 top Decks back on. Probably still not explaining it best.
Deck Correction Formulas:
New Deck Number = Old Deck #, where # is 1-4.
New Deck Number = ((Old Deck # - 3)/2.5)+3, where # is 5 to 23.
I did read through your logic section but obviously not very well, sorry!In my second part on the "logic", I tried to explain that Decks 1-3 are not affected or changed and probably Deck 4, too, but Decks 5 thru 23 minus the 3 top Decks are divided by 2.5 to give a proportional height within the saucer. Then to get the new Deck number, add the 3 top Decks back on. Probably still not explaining it best.
Deck Correction Formulas:
New Deck Number = Old Deck #, where # is 1-4.
New Deck Number = ((Old Deck # - 3)/2.5)+3, where # is 5 to 23.
Fair enough, I stand corrected.
I would still prefer a solution that did not require outright reinterpretation of the dialogue though, but that's just me
Forn tends to follow function, but not always. Aircraft seats would be safer if they faced backwards, but they don't because people don't like that facing. Inside a sealed tin can with a TV for a window and inertial dampening there's no sense of "forward" so it doesn't matter a jot.
MGagen said: ↑
Long, long ago, on this very BBS, Captain April and I debated this issue in one of the truly epic, long-running threads of all time. I am not sure that it is still preserved on the system, but if it is, revisiting it is not for the faint of heart. Some legends are best left buried...
I do recall those exchanges!
If I remember rightly, he ended up selecting your option "A", didn't he?
Such a solution would also allow the placement of the second turbolift seen in TAS
Yes, he did pick option A; but he never admitted that he had done so. I outlined the scale issue succinctly and cited every workaround to it in nearly my first post to the thread. The ensuing multi-month back-and-forth was highly entertaining.
No, that was some years later. The thread was from 2003, Started by Captain Robert April and was entitled "Okay, let's try this again...."
I'm pretty sure it has dropped off the system by now. I still have an archived copy in my file.
M.
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That’s good
Now, if the bridge rotated, you wouldn’t notice. That might be a good way to keep intruders at bay—they never reach the top floor...only they did
Now, if the bridge rotated, you wouldn’t notice. That might be a good way to keep intruders at bay—they never reach the top floor...only they did
When the writers scripted scenes on the bridge, the actors performed on the set, and the crew filmed, I highly doubt anyone pictured the captain's chair, center console, and viewscreen facing any direction but "forward." To me, the offset bridge is counter-intuitive.
If one worries about the bridge set not matching the exterior "bump," I prefer up-scaling the starship slightly (which solves some other "problems," right?) over rotating the bridge at an odd angle.
*the "captain needs to see who's coming" rationale doesn't wash for me...the door is still mostly out of his field of view when his attention is directed at the viewscreen
If one worries about the bridge set not matching the exterior "bump," I prefer up-scaling the starship slightly (which solves some other "problems," right?) over rotating the bridge at an odd angle.
*the "captain needs to see who's coming" rationale doesn't wash for me...the door is still mostly out of his field of view when his attention is directed at the viewscreen
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