Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x08 - "The Sanctuary"

[Jadeb]

I'd rather here what works for people more than what doesn't. I mean, I love different points of view, but if a person isn't enjoying themselves then moving on seems wise to my mind. And I mean this in broad strokes about a wide variety of things. Unless I am to interpret sticking around as meaning there is some measure of enjoyment despite mostly criticism being posted.

I’m often critical of the show, but I try to post good-faith commentary, both good and bad. I think there’s a difference in that and blind hate for the show. There are plenty of true haters online, but I don’t think we have that many here, so it gets tiresome to read endless vague posts complaining about criticism and how people should stop watching. This is a discussion board; we’re here to discuss. The post-game analysis is half the fun for me, and I value folks such as Lord Garth, even though I have often disagreed with him, because he takes the time to make reasoned arguments. But at times it can feel like trying to be thoughtful about the show is not rewarded here, and that only serves to drive away the type of posters who make this place worth visiting, IMO.

 

[Jadeb]

I do it all the time...but listening to people moan away about “The Writing” has just gotten to be such an overwhelmingly tiresome cliché. It’s like somehow the story has objectively failed because of the lack of skill the storyteller possesses ...rather than just frigging admitting “hey, this doesn’t work for me because of my own preferences”

There’s a difference. One is a victim mentality (“someone else made it bad, so I can’t like it”) and the other is a far more self-aware admission that it simply doesn’t resonate (“I’m not a fan of <action oriented / time travel / melodramatic / technobabble / reset button / speechification / insert whatever else doesn’t appeal to you here> stuff, and so this didn’t appeal to me. “)

Do you feel this way about non-Trek stuff? Do you find value in movie or book reviews or critical analysis?

 

[Vger23]

Some of the things you list can both be true. The Berman era series used technobabble and reset buttons so many times that they did become crutches for the show, which became lazy writing after a while.

Dismissing folks rightful criticisms of the sometimes slapdash writing on Discovery is kinda disingenuous. And there's plenty of us that can be critical of the show but still like and watch it - I always stay up on Wednesday nights to watch DSC the moment CBSAA makes it available to stream. To be honest, most of the discussion I'm seeing about it now are folks bitching about others being critical of the show and turning threads into an echo chamber.

Oh please...you know how the drill works. One person’s “constructive and thoughtful criticism brought up for intelligent debate” is just another persons “mindless bitching” and anything you post on either side of the fence is fair game for retort, counterpoints, and criticism. That’s the nature of the beast.

Your “echo chamber” and “stifling” only exists when the majority don’t see it that way. I know that can be frustrating, but that doesn’t make it invalid or inappropriate. That’s just life. What’s everyone supposed to do...simply let the comments or attitudes they don’t agree with slide and say...”you know, excellent point, good chap! Point goes to you this time for opening my mind to a new way of looking at things?”

Not likely.

I’d also like to understand what a “rightful criticism” is (as opposed to a wrongful one) and where the dismissals (as opposed to disagreements or counterpoints) are taking place.

Because, as I said, I can turn the entire argument right back around. There’s absolutely nothing at all wrong / incorrect / improper / etc about being critical of the show. Nothing at all! But there’s also nothing wrong with presenting counterpoints or different philosophies on why someone disagrees with those criticisms or their basis.

 

[Vger23]

Do you feel this way about non-Trek stuff? Do you find value in movie or book reviews or critical analysis?

No, not particularly.

 

[NCC-73515]

I don’t get this at all, TBH. I enjoy discussing what works and what doesn’t. I’m not sure why you’d spend time on a discussion board if you don’t.

I also like to know why people think something is good or bad, not just that they do!

I’m often critical of the show, but I try to post good-faith commentary, both good and bad. I think there’s a difference in that and blind hate for the show. There are plenty of true haters online, but I don’t think we have that many here, so it gets tiresome to read endless vague posts complaining about criticism and how people should stop watching. This is a discussion board; we’re here to discuss. The post-game analysis is half the fun for me, and I value folks such as Lord Garth, even though I have often disagreed with him, because he takes the time to make reasoned arguments. But at times it can feel like trying to be thoughtful about the show is not rewarded here, and that only serves to drive away the type of posters who make this place worth visiting, IMO.

Several people here seem to think that the existence of extreme haters who can't be reasoned with and make all discussion pointless in other parts of the internet automatically means that people who criticize things here must have the same level of hate and should not be taken seriously.

 

[Vger23]

But at times it can feel like trying to be thoughtful about the show is not rewarded here, and that only serves to drive away the type of posters who make this place worth visiting, IMO.

Oh c’mon man, that’s horsecrap. I didn’t post a glowing review of this episode either. In fact, most every episode of this season has rated as low for me as the least-interesting episodes of the previous two. So on the other side, I’m not a blind lover just like you’re not a blind hater. But....give me a break. Nobody is driving anyone anywhere.

I’m just saying I get tired of listening to “The Writing” as a complaint, particularly when many, many people find the stories and characters incredibly engaging. That’s your tastes. Not necessarily “The Writing” in my opinion. It isn’t “Basic Instinct 2.” It’s just stuff that doesn’t appeal to you personally.

Nothing wrong with that AT ALL. But let’s not pretend it’s someone’s fault.

That’s all I’m saying.

Damn.

 

[Noname Given]

Santa Kang said: ↑
Surely somewhere in the galaxy there are winged primates willing to do her bidding?

I think that may have been the Sea Locusts.

So those locusts were flying sea monkeys eh?

 

[Vger23]

Several people here seem to think that the existence of extreme haters who can't be reasoned with and make all discussion pointless in other parts of the internet automatically means that people who criticize things here must have the same level of hate and should not be taken seriously.

Ever consider that maybe the lack of extreme “lovers” who can’t be reasoned with in other parts of the internet ...and the fact that extreme “haters” can actually damage the current franchise, may have contributed to that sensitivity?

See, excessive criticism is a threat, particularly to those who like the show in its given format and tone.

 

[NCC-73515]

How can they damage it?

 

[Jadeb]

No, not particularly.

So what’s the appeal of a discussion forum for you? Wouldn’t you get more of what you want out of visiting the official Trek site or just sticking to the articles on some of the big fan sites? That’s not meant as a jab or a “go away,” but when I see the “stop watching” posts, I’m genuinely unclear on what people would like this place to be.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect everyone to engage with this stuff the same way you do, TBH. We all find value in different things.

 

[Vger23]

How can they damage it?

Really?

Internet / YouTube dinks with 1,000s of followers spreading false rumors about the franchise/ show or the “violation of Gene’s Vision” aren’t going to turn off casual fans who are gauging whether or not they are interested?? It’s naive to think they don’t have the power to influence the direction of the franchise.

 

[Firebird]

Somehow, I don't think "casual" fans are the ones watching those YouTube videos...

 

[Vger23]

So what’s the appeal of a discussion forum for you? Wouldn’t you get more of what you want out of visiting the official Trek site or just sticking to the articles on some of the big fan sites? That’s not meant as a jab or a “go away,” but when I see the “stop watching” posts, I’m genuinely unclear on what people would like this place to be.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect everyone to engage with this stuff the same way you do, TBH. We all find value in different things.

When in this discussion did anyone say “stop,watching?”

I simply said (at least 3 times now) that I get tired of hearing “The Writing” blamed for not liking something, and I’ve asked that maybe people be a little more introspective about their tastes and likes rather than just blaming it on external forces,(ie “ the writers are doing this to me!!”)

I don’t typically like “Trek as Comedy,” nor do I like “Trek Travels to Modern Day”. That doesn’t mean that TVH isn’t written well. It just means I don’t care for it. I don’t blame the writers. I blame me and what my personal interests are.

I don’t know how much more clear I can make myself.

 

[Jadeb]

Oh c’mon man, that’s horsecrap. I didn’t post a glowing review of this episode either. In fact, most every episode of this season has rated as low for me as the least-interesting episodes of the previous two. So on the other side, I’m not a blind lover just like you’re not a blind hater. But....give me a break. Nobody is driving anyone anywhere.

I’m just saying I get tired of listening to “The Writing” as a complaint, particularly when many, many people find the stories and characters incredibly engaging. That’s your tastes. Not necessarily “The Writing” in my opinion. It isn’t “Basic Instinct 2.” It’s just stuff that doesn’t appeal to you personally.

Nothing wrong with that AT ALL. But let’s not pretend it’s someone’s fault.

That’s all I’m saying.

Damn.

Again, I’m trying to be genuine here. And I didn’t mean to personalize my comments to you. I’ve enjoyed many of our discussions, and I know you’re not indiscriminate in your feelings about the show. But I’m struggling to understand your viewpoint and where you’re drawing the line re: criticism, probably because we seem to find very different value in the forum.

And I’m not kidding when I say that, from my perspective, the forum can be very unwelcoming to thoughtful discussion. I’m not laying that at your doorstep, but it’s true. It’s weird — it’s fine to discuss Voyager warts and all, or to talk about why Nemesis sucks. But people seem very defensive about the new stuff in a way I don’t understand.

 

[Vger23]

Somehow, I don't think "casual" fans are the ones watching those YouTube videos...

I’m not sure I agree. And I’m not sure it’s worth the risk to make that assumption.

If a casual fan is thinking of getting CBSAA to try a show out, and says “hey, maybe I’ll see what the buzz is on YouTube before I plunk down my hard-earned cash”...guess what they are going to find?

 

[Vger23]

Again, I’m trying to be genuine here. And I didn’t mean to personalize my comments to you. I’ve enjoyed many of our discussions, and I known you’re not indiscriminate in your feelings about the show. But I’m struggling to understand your viewpoint and where you’re draw the line re: criticism, probably because we seem to find very different value in the forum.

And I’m not kidding when I say that, from my perspective, the forum can be very unwelcoming to thoughtful discussion. I’m not laying that at your doorstep, but it’s true. It’s weird — it’s fine to discuss Voyager warts and all, or to talk about why Nemesis sucks. But people seem very defensive about the new stuff in a way I don’t understand.

I honestly think it’s a reaction / overreaction to the amazingly nasty negativity that exists online (see my response to @Firebird ) by a very vocal but extremely influential segment of the fan base.

It’s a raw nerve reaction. People don’t want to see something they’ve waited 2 decades to happen get dismantled by people who’d rather destroy it than just let it be so others can enjoy it.

And, btw...I thought THIS was a thoughtful discussion.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Another comeback I have to people bitching about writing on shows is "I'd like to see you do better. Hop to it"

 

[NCC-73515]

Really?

Internet / YouTube dinks with 1,000s of followers spreading false rumors about the franchise/ show or the “violation of Gene’s Vision” aren’t going to turn off casual fans who are gauging whether or not they are interested?? It’s naive to think they don’t have the power to influence the direction of the franchise.

really.

lunar landing conspiracy videos won't stop someone from watching apollo documentaries.
people screaming into their cameras how a new show deeply hurt them and killed everything they hold dear won't stop anyone who wants to watch the new show.

and even if it were true: how exactly does it damage a franchise if people who didn't watch it before still don't watch it?

 

[jackoverfull]

I assume any ship is attractive to pirates. Dilithium in any quantity is valuable. A ship the size of Discovery is a prize.

Yet in this episode the powerful pirate with a huge starship doesn’t even hint interest in the old little ship lost in space.

Do you feel this way about non-Trek stuff? Do you find value in movie or book reviews or critical analysis?

I do.

When in this discussion did anyone say “stop,watching?”

Previous page. And several times before.

It’s a raw nerve reaction. People don’t want to see something they’ve waited 2 decades to happen get dismantled by people who’d rather destroy it than just let it be so others can enjoy it.

On the other hand, people don’t want to wait decades for something and then don’t like it. And this is one of the reasons there is such a strong reaction to new Trek and the new Star Wars.

It’s also very telling that the same franchises managed to be liked by fans old and new with shows such as mandalorian and lower decks: it’s not impossible, it can be done.

Another comeback I have to people bitching about writing on shows is "I'd like to see you do better. Hop to it"

very old nonsense answer. Just because one is no trumpet player doesn’t mean he can’t notice a trumpet player is lacking technique in a style.

 

[Muji]

The ‘bad writing’ stuff is often a cover for ‘I didn’t like it’. If somebody is blowing a trumpet out of tune, then it’s bad playing. If they’re playing a song you don’t like, then you call it bad playing because you don’t know the difference, you shouldn’t be surprised if people wince at you.