TMP's Transporter Accident on Loop is the Stuff of Nightmares

[Cryogenic]

Is there a benefit to comparisons?

Is there a benefit to any discussion on subjective matters? You can ask these questions ad infinitum.

Point is, comparisons are a way that people express themselves on certain matters and arrive at understanding.

You claim to be all about having discussion/dialogue, but then you derisively shoot down people comparing things ("silly, at best"). So remain in your bubble of practiced aloofness and ignorance, I guess.

 

[fireproof78]

there a benefit to any discussion on subjective matters

Possibly.

 

[fireproof78]

For clarification's sake.

When you're handling something with grace and dignity, especially a large, complex, futuristic object like the Enterprise, you are automatically treating it as a character. So my point, quite simply, is that they didn't handle it with grace and dignity. The Enterprise became just a thing. The only time there is any elevated beauty is arguably -- perversely -- when Kirk blows it up in ST III and watches it descend through the atmosphere of the Genesis planet.

I don't think treating a thing with grace and dignity means treating it like a character. It just means treating it with grace and dignity. And it not being a character doesn't somehow lessen it being poorly treated in TWOK and TSFS.

In other words, based on what you seemed to be implying, any time you detect depth, you equate it with pretentiousness. It's an automatic turn-off for you. Now it's apparently about what a piece of entertainment is "claiming". I didn't think pieces of entertainment claim things. But some are clearly more thoughtful and aspirational than others.

It's all in presentation. And, no, depth does not equal pretentiousness. But, it can lead to that.

You can reach for concepts without being extravagant, but hard Science-Fiction comes with its share of extravagant hardware, extravagant situations, and extravagant speculation.

And that's fine. I have never treated Star Trek as hard science fiction, so TMP stands out against TOS.

You said that TMP is "grand, sweeping and visually large", while you contrasted TWOK against it and said the latter is "very much in to the characters". This implied you consider TMP mostly a visual spectacle; or a visual spectacle first and foremost. Stand by your words or choose better ones if that isn't what you mean?

Or, ask for clarification. TMP is big on ideas, grand sweeping vistas and looking at space as very dangerous. The characters are more witnesses against this backdrop. TMP starts big before going smaller, then back to big. TWOK starts small and slowly grows, though not as big as TMP.

I guess what I'm saying is: Different courses for different horses. Dishonesty enters the frame, however, when you act like comparing them is futile, but then try and implicitly pass TWOK off as the superior one, with veiled hints that it's more grounded and normal and free of the pretense and aggrandisement of TMP. Just say you like one better and one is more Star Trek to you without the dishonest muddying.

TWOK is not superior and I did not imply anything beyond my preference.

Sure. I think the characters had to be a bit more inward and serious in TMP. By contrast, I find their chipper personalities in TWOK offputting. TMP reinvents the wheel (practically), and then TWOK immediately reinvents (or degrades it) again. It's too much. In TWOK, they were also obviously written and performed to be more "likeable", but that says nothing positive (for me) by itself.

And this is where I disagree. I don't see it as degrading, even if it is "too much" and feels much different. And, likability is something I find value in.

The movies obviously diverge. But the point (for some) is that they diverge so much that it's hard to see them as the same universe, and the relish that went into making TWOK and designing it to "correct" (and essentially obviate) TMP is extremely noxious (for some).

And, again, there's an assumption that they are trying to correct TMP's mistakes, as if there is some sort of malice behind their efforts to write their story. That is a rather odd reading of the situation.

Now, to be 100% clear so there is no misunderstanding-I don't think TMP is better than TWOK or that TWOK is superior to TMP. I actually do not find either film very enjoyable. TWOK gets by because of how it handles the characters, and that's only scrapping by. I'm not engaging in textual analysis-I'm stating my preference and what I tend to revisit.

 

[jackoverfull]

I've read some of the earlier comments about the scene and a few things that did bother me about it. First, as some have noted, I've always been perplexed how a starship can beam someone to a planet without a receiving transporter room, yet when they transport to a ship most of the time it seems to have to be to their transporter room.

It perplexed me as well, especially as even in TOS they routinely beam in on a disabled ship without needing to rely on its transporters (Constellation, Defiant and others...).

I can buy in the added safety thing, I can imagine that it would allow Beamon through the shields (in the episodes where beaming through shields is possibile, but that’s another issue), but surely if the transporters of the enterprise were not working properly they could have just used the space station’s ones on their own, right?

Oh, well, only explanation I can come up with that makes some sense is that using a receiving platform extends range and that the station was too far from the drydock to transport on its own. And obviously the enterprise crew thought their transporter was fixed at that point.

 

[Pauln6]

It perplexed me as well, especially as even in TOS they routinely beam in on a disabled ship without needing to rely on its transporters (Constellation, Defiant and others...).

I can buy in the added safety thing, I can imagine that it would allow Beamon through the shields (in the episodes where beaming through shields is possibile, but that’s another issue), but surely if the transporters of the enterprise were not working properly they could have just used the space station’s ones on their own, right?

Oh, well, only explanation I can come up with that makes some sense is that using a receiving platform extends range and that the station was too far from the drydock to transport on its own. And obviously the enterprise crew thought their transporter was fixed at that point.

I favour distortions caused by active warp engines. This means beaming onto damaged ships with no power still works. Beaming onto Enemy ships even with shields down doesn't. It covers transporter warfare up to a point, since you can still beam anti-matter mines outside ships. In fact cloaked ships beaming mines seems like a sensible Romulan tactic.

 

[Damian]

Oh, well, only explanation I can come up with that makes some sense is that using a receiving platform extends range and that the station was too far from the drydock to transport on its own. And obviously the enterprise crew thought their transporter was fixed at that point.

I favour distortions caused by active warp engines. This means beaming onto damaged ships with no power still works. Beaming onto Enemy ships even with shields down doesn't. It covers transporter warfare up to a point, since you can still beam anti-matter mines outside ships. In fact cloaked ships beaming mines seems like a sensible Romulan tactic.

At the end of the day it's probably one of those things that just don't make a lot of sense. Any explanation in story can probably be contradicted by another at some point. My guess is they really didn't think about it being an issue. They wanted it for dramatic effect and to demonstrate the refit Enterprise is not fully operational yet but is being rushed out due to an emergency. But it kind of falls flat because after the ship sets off the transporters are never used again in the movie.

And honestly it's my 2nd point that bothers me even more. That no one bothered to tell Sonak and Ciana that the transporter on the Enterprise was not up to snuff. I can't believe no one called the ship, even just to tell them 2 people were ready to beam aboard. Somebody really dropped the ball there.

When I first got into Star Trek it was the movies first. So when I first saw TMP I didn't think about the 1st complaint yet--needing a receiving pad to transport. It was my 2nd point that immediately came to mind. "Didn't anyone bother to call the ship to see if it was safe to transport? Kirk knew he couldn't transport, didn't those two?" As much as I love TMP it's one thing that to this day bugs me. Maybe later I'll check my novelization to see if there's any explanation for that, or whether that was even considered. As I've noted before I am an avid novel reader and I can't recall if that was ever rectified in some novel that takes place later. Something else, maybe later, I'll hunt around for because it's bugging me now. Sometimes one of the books explains something away that at least 'sounds' plausible.

And that's fine. I have never treated Star Trek as hard science fiction, so TMP stands out against TOS.

I would say Star Trek is halfway there. It's not 2001: A Space Odyssey level sci-fi. But I remember reading "The Making of Star Trek" which was a book about the making of the show that came out in 1968. Hard sci-fi was at the basis of their thinking, and the set designers over the years have gone to great lengths to keep a level of realism in the sets. They just don't put a plasma conduit somewhere to look cool. They actually think about what that conduit is for in the ship.

But they did take some liberties for dramatic effect. For instance, hearing ships and explosions in space. Obviously it'd be a lot less dramatic to just see the Enterprise battle the Scimitar in Nemesis and not hear it, or not to hear the phasers in TWOK. I would say Star Trek took liberties, but the science part of the science fiction was always there lurking around. It never went as far as Star Wars, whom George Lucas has always said was not sci-fi, but a space opera, or fantasy.

TMP was as close to 2001 level sci-fi Star Trek ever got probably. Perhaps that's why it's my favorite Star Trek film. It's closest to real, hard sci-fi Star Trek ever got. Other movies and shows had varying levels of hard sci-fi. Some more, some less. But from a sci-fi perspective, TMP is as closed to the pinnacle they got.

 

[fireproof78]

TMP was as close to 2001 level sci-fi Star Trek ever got probably. Perhaps that's why it's my favorite Star Trek film. It's closest to real, hard sci-fi Star Trek ever got. Other movies and shows had varying levels of hard sci-fi. Some more, some less. But from a sci-fi perspective, TMP is as closed to the pinnacle they got.

Fair enough. I just don't see Trek as hard as I used to and the more I studied the science of space travel the more lenient I became with Trek as realistic.

And, yes, I would say TMP is close to that pinnacle and no other film has tried for that. I think that is to TMPs edification.

 

[Smellmet]

The blind arrogance there is, well... astounding, frankly.

Is there any need for this? Fireproof is literally one of the most friendly, least arrogant people you'll find on these boards.

So remain in your bubble of practiced aloofness and ignorance, I guess.

Or this? Your posts are the ones that come off looking way worse in terms of arrogance and abrasiveness among other things.

 

[Cryogenic]

Is there any need for this? Fireproof is literally one of the most friendly, least arrogant people you'll find on these boards.

Or this? Your posts are the ones that come off looking way worse in terms of arrogance and abrasiveness among other things.

And what is the point in your post? It appears you have posted only to stir the pot. I've already let the discussion move on. I suggest you take a leaf out of my book and do the same.

 

[Smellmet]

And what is the point in your post? It appears you have posted only to stir the pot. I've already let the discussion move on. I suggest you take a leaf out of my book and do the same.

Then keep your posts respectful and there wouldn't be a pot to stir.

 

[Cryogenic]

Then keep your posts respectful and there wouldn't be a pot to stir.

Are you a moderator? Posting simply to upbraid another member might be considered trolling. I put my opinions across strongly and openly. That is all. Not my fault if you can't handle that and literally have nothing constructive to add.

 

[Smellmet]

Are you a moderator? Posting simply to upbraid another member might be considered trolling. I put my opinions across strongly and openly. That is all. Not my fault if you can't handle that and literally have nothing constructive to add.

There's a difference between strong opinions and personal attacks and your posts frequently cross the line into the latter when someone dares to disagree with you, and it's not on.

I hope a moderator does rock up, as I'm criticising the post and not the poster, as per the rules.

 

[Cryogenic]

There's a difference between strong opinions and personal attacks and your posts frequently cross the line into the latter when someone dares to disagree with you, and it's not on.

Here you are yet again attacking/accosting someone else and continuing to add nothing to the thread.

I speak as a find -- which seems like an alien concept for you. The remarks you have chosen to see as an affront are nothing more than me holding another member to account by their own words. They personally claimed to enjoy good conversation and other fans sharing their opinions, while arrogantly deigning people comparing different movies as beneath their time, in as many words. I found this strange given their earlier claim, so I suggested they were expressing a contradiction and that their hostility toward certain lines of discourse was a mark of arrogance on their part. Which I believe it to be. But I already moved on. You, however, just wanted to stir up trouble -- clearly.

I hope a moderator does rock up, as I'm criticising the post and not the poster, as per the rules.

Yes. Crying like a bitch to an authority figure because some words have flashed up on a computer screen you dislike. How very grown up and noble of you. Moreover, let's not pretend you don't have a dog in this fight. You have a TWOK avatar. You're clearly upset I've bashed your precious movie and are just looking for an excuse to have me censored. At least the other member was prepared to have a ghost of a conversation on the matter. You're just sounding off and playing the blasphemy card.

 

[Pauln6]

There's a difference between strong opinions and personal attacks and your posts frequently cross the line into the latter when someone dares to disagree with you, and it's not on.

I hope a moderator does rock up, as I'm criticising the post and not the poster, as per the rules.

I have found the posts to be detailed, well reasoned on both sides and generally respectful. Sometimes people just enjoy one thing more than another and we have to accept that.

By doggedly restating our own position but worded slightly differently.

 

[fireproof78]

I have found the posts to be detailed, well reasoned on both sides and generally respectful. Sometimes people just enjoy one thing more than another and we have to accept that.

By doggedly restating our own position but worded slightly differently.

Well we wouldn't be here if there wasn't some measure of personal involvement and acceptance of differences is part of that process.

And, yes, usually involves repetition, clarification and possible some hair pulling. Thus the limits of text based formatted discussions

 

[Smellmet]

Here you are yet again attacking/accosting someone else and continuing to add nothing to the thread.

I speak as a find -- which seems like an alien concept for you. The remarks you have chosen to see as an affront are nothing more than me holding another member to account by their own words. They personally claimed to enjoy good conversation and other fans sharing their opinions, while arrogantly deigning people comparing different movies as beneath their time, in as many words. I found this strange given their earlier claim, so I suggested they were expressing a contradiction and that their hostility toward certain lines of discourse was a mark of arrogance on their part. Which I believe it to be. But I already moved on. You, however, just wanted to stir up trouble -- clearly.



Yes. Crying like a bitch to an authority figure because some words have flashed up on a computer screen you dislike. How very grown up and noble of you. Moreover, let's not pretend you don't have a dog in this fight. You have a TWOK avatar. You're clearly upset I've bashed your precious movie and are just looking for an excuse to have me censored. At least the other member was prepared to have a ghost of a conversation on the matter. You're just sounding off and playing the blasphemy card.

That's quite an outburst. Crying like a bitch? Wow. Aggressive and uncalled for - yet again.

It's a shame as you seem like an intelligent, articulate person that has some valid points to make but if you can't see why I take issue with you taking swipes at a poster who I know for a fact never stoops to that level then I really don't know what to say to you. Read the two bits I quoted, instead of 'agreeing to disagreeing' like you should and what fireproof78 always does you decide to call him arrogant and throw other shade at him.

For the record, despite my avatar, TMP is my joint favourite trek film alongside TWOK - I ADORE TMP, so your weak assumptions are way off the mark.

I'm more than happy to discuss TMP with you, but if you're going to continue to resort to insults then I simply... won't.

 

[Cryogenic]

I have found the posts to be detailed, well reasoned on both sides and generally respectful. Sometimes people just enjoy one thing more than another and we have to accept that.

By doggedly restating our own position but worded slightly differently.

Thank you for your earnest, mature, and calibrated support, and for your possibly subtly worded disapproval of certain actions without singling anyone out or breathing down anyone's neck. If I get a bit testy sometimes, so be it. I put my case and move on. Some just seem to take issue with that. But then, I'm not trying to please anyone, or gain anyone's approval, either.

 

[Pauln6]

Thank you for your earnest, mature, and calibrated support, and for your possibly subtly worded disapproval of certain actions without singling anyone out or breathing down anyone's neck. If I get a bit testy sometimes, so be it. I put my case and move on. Some just seem to take issue with that. But then, I'm not trying to please anyone, or gain anyone's approval, either.

Lol. I'm no position to criticise. I love Rand and I will die on that (Marianna) hill.

 

[Damian]

For the record, despite my avatar, TMP is my joint favourite trek film alongside TWOK - I ADORE TMP, so your weak assumptions are way off the mark

Yeah, I love TMP....TWOK is 2nd on my list of favorite Trek films. I know it's a bit of an unusual 1/2 for Trek films. But it was TMP that made me a Trekkie when I first saw it on VHS. I never get tired of it, and it never bores me. Ditto for TWOK. Much different kinds of movies but both enjoyable to watch.

And until Star Trek (2009) it was the only Star Trek film that actually had a blockbuster budget.

I'm trying to recall, are you also 'one of the 10 people that liked Nemesis' as I like to call our 'elite' group? I know there is another guy with a similar, but younger Kirk avatar, Vger23 (I think his avatar is a TV series version of Kirk, but also yelling into a communicator) who liked Nemesis so maybe I'm confusing you guys.

 

[Damian]

She's just a crewman in the film. The are multiple images without the effects here.

I was late coming to the thread but was going back over some of the older comments and I have to say, the pictures without the effects are actually more disturbing I think. In the final product, even in the enhanced DE, you only see bits and pieces of the characters. Much of it is obscured and the most disturbing part of that is the scream.

But seeing the unaltered pictures actually seems more disturbing for some reason. Their facial expressions even give the impression of great pain. And I never realized they had both characters fully made up and in full uniform. I mean, it makes sense I guess, but I just thought since the image was mostly obscured they were just in some sort of basic costume. Hell, even Sonak was in full make-up.