Any point in secret identities?

[JD]

No, they exist in a world where the Fantastic Four and half the Avengers have no secret identities, yet their civilian pals get by just fine. If Wyatt Wingfoot can handle it, Mary Jane can too.

Didn't MJ know Peter was Spider-Man for at least a couple decades before One Day More?

Only because he took it back, using the Purple Man's kids to hypnotize the whole planet in 2017.

15 years ago, a News Paper outed Daredevil, so Matt sued for defamation, and won the entire Newspaper. It changed nothing.

Daredevil is scary.

Which episodes did all of that happen in?

It's that all the stuff acceptable as Silver Age wackiness is viewed through modern eyes and the characters are coming off not the same the past writers intended.

It's the same reason Hank Pym is treated the way he is. He had a history of unstable decisions and mental breakdowns in the 60s and 70s written as nothing but usual Silver Age silliness...modern writers look at his history and realized "Whoa, this dude is NUTS!" and his modern characterization is now that he's always been a barely restrained nutter.

I find it a bit funny that the big moment that set all of this off, Hank hitting Jan, only happened because of a miscommunication between the writer and artist. Kind of makes you wonder what would have become of the character if the artist had drawn the scene the way the writer intended.

Honestly secret identities have never been very plausible (.e.g Superman and glasses), unless the face was covered and voice modified somehow. It’s part of suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy the stories.

I love that the new shows and movies have actually added voice modulation as part of the some of the heroes' disguises. It's such an obvious thing I'm kind of amazed it's taken this long for them to start doing it.

 

[fireproof78]

I wish I could find the video of it but there was an interesting experiment done involving people noticing if a person behind the counter would be remembered if the customer was distracted briefly at the beginning of their interaction. In the experiment, one person would engage with the customer, then a person would distract them, and the person behind the counter would switch with someone else, dressed the same and picking up the conversation exactly where they left off.

People would think something was odd, but there were times were the brain had failed to encode the face in the situation, and thus became blind to the change.

As much as we mock it, there is the possibility that not everyone is going to make the connection, especially since heroes tend to show up in high stress situations, which can result in very myopic focus on the part of humans.

 

[Christopher]

Works for Zooey Deschanel

It's probably easier for women in our society, because you can do a lot to change the apparent shape of the face with makeup, and men in the US don't generally wear a lot of makeup (although some do, of course).

There's also the principle that you can make a disguise effective by having a prominent detail that draws the eye, like a vivid wig or big sunglasses or a garish t-shirt. It's discussed in this video a couple of minutes in, the part about Alias:

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This could be seen as a justification for superheroes' garish or revealing costumes. I think it's been used as an excuse for Power Girl's boob window, and of course there was Martha Kent's line in the Lois & Clark pilot that "nobody's going to be looking at your face!"

 

[YLu]

This is you going quite a ways out of your way to not get it. The problem with the way modern writers write Marvel Comics is that they don't get it either. Astro City was an exercise in writing Marvel type stories with the twist that aging readers' wants are met at every turn. Then a new generation of writers began writing Marvel itself that way, which is why they're now losing readership. The aging fanbase has realized that making the characters age to match them ruins them for future use, and they're jumping ship because the writers haven't realized it, and don't seem to want to.

The Marvel Universe I'm describing is the one I read as I grew up in the '60s and '70s. Every change I don't like is from well after that era.

And the superheroes that didn't have secret identities from the "all-ages era" (it's a mindset, not a time period) were uniformly heroes that had abandoned their civilian identities. The exceptions were notable because they were so few.

Sorry, but you're still not explaining the link between superheroes without secret identities and aging audiences. What's inherently more adult or less child-appropriate about superheroes who don't hide who they are? Kids love the MCU, and every character there either doesn't have a secret identity or at least no longer has one.

I'm not sure exactly when you think the cut-off date is for when everything started to go "wrong" with Marvel, but even in the 70s, Marvel was already doing a bunch of superheroes without secret identities, which you dismiss as not counting because they "abandoned" their civilian identities, but what does that even mean? They still pal'd around with regular people, or dated them, or had civilian family members.

More importantly, isn't it more interesting that they do? Marvel's great innovation was making its characters grounded, tied to regular relatable life. Surely the likes of the Fantastic Four, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist are richer for being able to be shown hanging out with regular friends or dating ordinary people, as opposed to interacting entirely within some separate exclusive society of super-people, cut off from our mundane concerns.

The writer quickly realized his mistake, and basically said "Let's pretend that never happened, okay?"

It might have initially been an error, but the original writer absolutely leaned into the artist's interpretation in his script and made it a whole big thing in the story. It was some later writers have tried to move past it, but the damage was already done.

 

[YLu]

I think it was John Byrne who pointed out that Superman has the advantage of not wearing a mask, so people don't expect him to be hiding his identity, and so they aren't predisposed to wonder who he "really" is as they would be with Batman or the Flash, say.

I never really bought that. The only time anyone sees Superman is when he's on the job. No one ever sees him taking a leisurely stroll or having a coffee or whatever. Surely people would wonder what he's doing in his free time when he's not saving lives.

 

[Christopher]

Sorry, but you're still not explaining the link between superheroes without secret identities and aging audiences. What's inherently more adult or less child-appropriate about superheroes who don't hide who they are? Kids love the MCU, and every character there either doesn't have a secret identity or at least no longer has one.

I think if such a pattern exists, it's not so much about child vs. adult as a shift in generational viewpoints. The modern world is far more interconnected and far less private. People share far more of their personal lives in public, and secrets are far harder to keep. Plus, the exposure of so many sexual abuse scandals has made the current generation more sensitive about questions of consent and trust, so the trope of superheroes deceiving and gaslighting their loved ones to protect their secrets seems a lot less funny and a lot more toxic. On the more positive side, many people are no longer willing to hide parts of themselves that would have been kept secret in the past, aspects of their identity that they now choose to embrace openly and take pride in, like being LGBTQ or neurodivergent. So there's less sympathy for the idea of hiding who you really are in order to conform and appear "average."

Otherwise, I agree with your general position on this issue. There's no single, uniform pattern for which heroes do or don't have secret identities, and any value judgment based on a blanket generalization is overly simplistic.

I never really bought that. The only time anyone sees Superman is when he's on the job. No one ever sees him taking a leisurely stroll or having a coffee or whatever. Surely people would wonder what he's doing in his free time when he's not saving lives.

Sure, but they wouldn't necessarily assume that he was disguising himself as someone else. They might imagine that he might occasionally pop out for a latte in a hat and sunglasses, like a celebrity going incognito, but it wouldn't necessarily follow that they'd imagine he had an entire separate identity, because that's just not something people usually do, and because it's more deceitful than they'd expect of a paragon of Truth and Justice. The smarter people, the ones who took the time to think it through, could deduce it, but most people wouldn't put that much thought into it. At least, it would be less obvious than it is for a masked superhero who's obviously hiding their identity.

Besides, in most incarnations, Superman does a lot more than fighting crime and stopping disasters. He does charity work, he gives TV interviews and speeches, he advocates for social causes, and so on. So there would be a perception that he has an ongoing life as Superman. And if he let the public know about the existence (though not the location) of the Fortress of Solitude, it'd be a great misdirect, because they'd assume he just lives there when he's off-duty, forever monitoring the world for crises.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

No, she can't. Wyatt Wingfoot regularly spends time going on the Fantastic Four's adventures with them, so he isn't just a civilian acquaintance

This. He was not some civilian just hanging around like your next door neighbor, who would jump to the top of the "who is going to die" list if he or she accompanied the heroes on their missions.

For the record, it was retconned that Mary Jane knew Peter was Spider-Man all along, as she had seen him sneak out in costume more than once. This is the main reason she turned him down the first time he proposed, according to the retcon. Originally she was just shallow, but a later writer gave her more depth. And with the depth, he gave her a perspective that caused her distress even without the danger from his enemies, though she avoided him a lot because she knew that knowing his secret could eventually get her killed.

Correct, and she stressed out over this because her realistic example of what direction her life could take was Gwen's murder at the hands of one who knew who Parker was. She cannot handle that, and her knowing would not protect this ordinary woman from harm. Further, anyone using "gaslighting" in reference to a hero rightfully keeping his business to himself needs to learn what "gaslighting" really means. The ridiculous idea that there is some sort of "abuse" in your private business not being your own and realizing that it would pose dangers to anyone being drawn into that "other" world" is again, ridiculous. Or insecure that someone around you has parts of their life that are meant for that individual alone. Shocker.

As for the Fantastic Four, they don't have civilian friends. All of their friends are members of other hero groups, and can take care of themselves. Same for the Avengers that let out their IDs.

True. There are no Jimmy Olsens tagging along to be rescued when some creature hurls him to what should be his death. In early Silver Age history, readers made the same point about Rick Jones; yes, he's the reason Banner became the Hulk, and tagged along with the early Avengers, but he was just an ordinary teen with no special skills or training, so it was irresponsible for Jones to be anywhere near those superpowered characters .
In fact, it was his near death during a conflict between the military and the Hulk (Captain America #110 - February, 1969), that Cap (guilt-ridden over his inability to prevent Bucky's death) warned Jones to stay away from the Hulk. At this point, Cap finally agreed to train Jones in his unique fighting style, and allow him to wear one of Bucky's costumes. That was the only time having pre-Captain Marvel-merged Jones around dangerous situations made any sense, but like Wingfoot at that point, he was more than the equivalent of a neighbor, relative or co-worker.

 

[YLu]

This. He was not some civilian just hanging around like your next door neighbor, who would jump to the top of the "who is going to die" list if he or she accompanied the heroes on their missions.

Yes, I'm sure regular college student Wyatt Wingfoot can handle danger better than intrepid mobster-busting reporter Lois Lane.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes, I'm sure regular college student Wyatt Wingfoot can handle danger better than intrepid mobster-busting reporter Lois Lane.

Wingfoot is a trained athlete (Olympic decathlon) and skilled hand to hand fighter, not some average bro from fraternity row.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Which episodes did all of that happen in?

Bendis' run on Daredevil. The first hard cover covers Daredevil being outed.

Google says the purple kids turned up in Daredevil Vol 4 #8
(November, 2014).

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Purple_Children_(Earth-616)

Although the Purple Girl was one of my favourites from 80s Alpha Flight.

 

[Christopher]

Wingfoot is a trained athlete (Olympic decathlon) and skilled hand to hand fighter, not some average bro from fraternity row.

None of which has anything to do with the definition of "civilian." A talented amateur is still an amateur.

 

[Nerys Myk]

None of which has anything to do with the definition of "civilian." A talented amateur is still an amateur.

I was referring to the description of Wingfoot as a "regular college student". Which is why I quoted the post that contained that statement.

 

[Christopher]

But the reason Wingfoot was brought up in the first place was as an example of a civilian ally who could handle being in the loop about knowing the heroes' identities, and there were questions raised about whether he really qualified as a civilian. I'm just saying I don't think someone's level of athletic skill has anything to do with whether they could deal with having a superheroic friend or loved one. If anything, it's the people with less fighting ability who should be clued in to their loved ones' heroic identities so that they can take what measures they can to protect themselves. Keeping them ignorant just makes them even more vulnerable.

 

[Guy Gardener]

How does Wyatt become a pro?

Google tells me that Wyatt is the chief of a made up tribe.

That makes him a civil authority, which is weird since a super hero is usually a vigilante disrupting the natural course of justice... I suppose Black Panther balances his responsibility well.

If Wyatt had had kids with She-Hulk, and 30 years later one of them was Chief... That would have redefined how the US Government dealt with Tribal land, if there's half a dozen Hulks willing to exert Keewazi authority.

Politically, he should have tried harder to put a ring on that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But the reason Wingfoot was brought up in the first place was as an example of a civilian ally who could handle being in the loop about knowing the heroes' identities, and there were questions raised about whether he really qualified as a civilian. I'm just saying I don't think someone's level of athletic skill has anything to do with whether they could deal with having a superheroic friend or loved one. If anything, it's the people with less fighting ability who should be clued in to their loved ones' heroic identities so that they can take what measures they can to protect themselves. Keeping them ignorant just makes them even more vulnerable.

The poster was attempting to downplay Wingfoot's established background and skill level. He's a character who's been proved to hold his own in the "Superhero world".

 

[JD]

Correct, and she stressed out over this because her realistic example of what direction her life could take was Gwen's murder at the hands of one who knew who Parker was. She cannot handle that, and her knowing would not protect this ordinary woman from harm.

I'm still not sure I entirely understand how them not knowing really keeps them safer than them knowing. Either way they are still in the exact same situation and in the same amount of the danger, only they might not be aware of it. At least if they know, they are aware of what's kind of danger they are in.

Bendis' run on Daredevil. The first hard cover covers Daredevil being outed.

Google says the purple kids turned up in Daredevil Vol 4 #8
(November, 2014).

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Purple_Children_(Earth-616)

Although the Purple Girl was one of my favourites from 80s Alpha Flight.

Oh, the conversation was about the TV show version of Daredevil, so I thought that was what you were talking about.

 

[Christopher]

The poster was attempting to downplay Wingfoot's established background and skill level. He's a character who's been proved to hold his own in the "Superhero world".

I think you're missing YLu's larger point, which is that Lois Lane can certainly hold her own as well. She actually is a professional in a dangerous line of work.

More to the point, we're not talking about participation in a loved one's superheroics, just the right to know about them.

I'm still not sure I entirely understand how them not knowing really keeps them safer than them knowing. Either way they are still in the exact same situation and in the same amount of the danger, only they might not be aware of it. At least if they know, they are aware of what's kind of danger they are in.

Yes, exactly. One of the tropes that annoys me most in fiction is the idea that keeping people ignorant keeps them safe, an excuse used to justify stories about superheroes or secret agents hiding their identity from their loved ones or about government agencies keeping the existence of aliens/time travel/demons/whatever secret from the public. But that's not how it works. The way to protect people from a threat is to tell them about it so they can take precautions (just look at the different COVID-19 infection rates in countries and states that took prompt action versus those who denied the problem). Keeping them ignorant puts them in more danger.

Too much fiction embraces the secrecy trope without thinking the consequences through. They want to pretend that a fantasy or SF situation is taking place in secret in the real world (which is a silly thing to do, since we all know we're watching fiction), but sometimes the characters' secrecy just makes things worse. For instance, in the first season of War of the Worlds: The Series back in '88, the aliens were given the ability to hide in human corpses, and they were actively pursuing schemes of mass murder and terrorism in human disguise. And the government did nothing to warn the public about this ongoing, active threat to their lives, or to alert them to watch out for unhealthy-looking people who congregated in threes and spoke to each other in a strange language. And so literally thousands of civilians died unnecessarily just so the "heroes" could keep working in secret. And then there's The Tomorrow People, at least the CW remake. By hiding their existence, the titular superpowered mutants just gave the organization opposing them free rein to hunt them down, abduct them, murder them, torture them, and experiment on them, because nobody knew this was happening. They should've gone public, recruited a PR firm to sell their case and lawyers to fight for their rights. Sure, it would've exposed them to open bigotry, but at least it wouldn't have been so easy to violate their legal rights or murder them with impunity.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think you're missing YLu's larger point, which is that Lois Lane can certainly hold her own as well. She actually is a professional in a dangerous line of work.

A point that could be made by not describing Wyatt Wingfoot as "regular". Which he is not.

 

[Skipper]

I'm still not sure I entirely understand how them not knowing really keeps them safer than them knowing.

Recently I was reading some Superman stories published immediately before the Byrne reboot and, perhaps it was my imagination, but I seem to have caught some embarrassment on the part of the authors when they writing stories about this particular trope. Lois had had so many adventures and stand up to so many super villains that the "it's for your sake" excuse was frankly getting ridiculous. But this particular trope was so ingrained in the Superman lore that the writers had found themselves in a dead end from a narrative point of view. The best idea that came to them was to make Lois and Superman break up and get Clark to start a new relationship with Lana Lang. And this was the new status quo for a couple of years until the reboot.

By the way this was supposed to be a Big Change for our hero and it was part of a mini-relaunch of the character (in this period Luthor acquired his armor and Braniac its new robotic body), but at this point people was so little interested in his stories that almost none remember this supposed big development.

 

[YLu]

When did Wyatt Wingfoot turn into Shang-Chi or something? He's a buff and fit guy, sure (one of his earliest appearances had his college trying to scout him for their football team), but I never got the impression he was the sort who could take on a supervillain.

Maybe I should have just used Alicia Masters as my example instead...