Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x05 - "Stardust City Rag"

[Bad Thoughts]

As a father of a 13 year old, who has been watching Picard with me and in the middle of his own marathon of the Expanse, I can appreciate that a small amount of gore does more to highlight the problems of violence than the gratuitous, incessant fighting in almost every superhero flick. Parents certainly need to monitor how media affects their children, but I don't think that blood/no blood is an effective distinction to make.

 

[Gov Kodos]

In that case all you have to do is get them to take human-form & hand out booze. Scotty solved this over a hundred years ago already.

That's the danger of synthahol. It's the whole synth business, really. Probably, from the merger of Burger King, McDonald's, and Xerox in the late 23rd century.

 

[Racefuel]

It’s funny how the “oh this is such a bleak outlook” almost mirrors how naive your typical Federation citizen must view things.

Fenris, Freecloud, etc...all exist beyond the Federation and are places that the Federation abandoned also..

of course the bright future is dead there. Of course there is crime, corruption and such...it’s the rough edges of the real galaxy and not the idealized future that humans have on earth

 

[Gonzo]

While I can't recommend the specific episode, somebody needs to go watch TOS!

Oh its a TOS episode, I haven't watched any of those since the 80's.

I mainly stuck to the films back then.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

More of a criticism of the Icheb dissection scene: I really think the mercy killing was a poor dramatic choice. I think other main character from Star Trek would not have done so, but Seven of Nine having different origins may make her choices more questionable. However, the scene relied heavily on knowing and remembering the relationship between Icheb and Seven of Nine. As someone who has not watched Voyager in a long time, Icheb's death didn't resonate with me as it might with others. I get that Seven felt like an aggrieved mother, but from my perspective, that grief did not feel directly connected to Seven in specific (I hope this makes sense). I makes me hesitate to see further reappearances of characters in the future, especially those who were less central to their series.

 

[Gonzo]

It’s funny how the “oh this is such a bleak outlook” almost mirrors how naive your typical Federation citizen must view things.

Fenris, Freecloud, etc...all exist beyond the Federation and are places that the Federation abandoned also..

of course the bright future is dead there. Of course there is crime, corruption and such...it’s the rough edges of the real galaxy and not the idealized future that humans have on earth

Which is why I have always liked the S31 stuff.

Its possible that we may see S31 in Picard as well, Commodore Oh is an obvious candidate assuming she is not actually Zhat Vash, as giving the secret to Jurati doesnt feel very Zhat Vash like to me.

 

[SJGardner]

It’s funny how the “oh this is such a bleak outlook” almost mirrors how naive your typical Federation citizen must view things.

Fenris, Freecloud, etc...all exist beyond the Federation and are places that the Federation abandoned also..

of course the bright future is dead there. Of course there is crime, corruption and such...it’s the rough edges of the real galaxy and not the idealized future that humans have on earth

"Do you know what the trouble is? The trouble is Earth. On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. It's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the demilitarized zone all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints, just people-angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not."

So many people seem to forget the Federation has never ever been portrayed as a shiny, perfect lotus-eater machine filled with flawless, eternally happy people.

 

[Llywela]

We're seeing the rough spots where bad shit is happening. The typical Federation citizen may be happy as a clam in their blissful ignorance.

I agree. From what we saw on Earth, the Federation (and Earth) are continuing to thrive. It's just that this show isn't set in the harmonious heart of the Federation. It is set around the rough edges - which have always existed, the Enterprise visited struggling colonies and non-Federation worlds repeatedly throughout TNG and what we've seen so far in this show is fairly typical of what was often shown or implied about those worlds then. It's just that in the past, we mostly only paid fleeting visits to those areas of intergalactic society. This show, in contrast, is set out there, which allows for a much closer viewing of that seedy underworld.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

They did it once.

So far.

 

[gaghyogi49]

but that credit was only in this episode

I have checked the version of the episode shown on Amazon Prime in Germany and there is no credit for Chattaway in the end credits (it’s supposed to be right after Jerry Goldsmith’s credit). Can Someone check if they still can see it in the credits? I also cannot find a hint of the Ressikan flute lullaby in the episode. Maybe this was a mistake fixed in time for the release on Prime 24h later?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The difference between Bermantrek Federation culture and 2399 Federation culture isn’t the quality of life on Earth, it’s the attitude toward the unknown. We’ve always seen portrayals of seedy dangerous bars like this in episodes like Gambit and Birthright. They just looked less like Earth bars and more like Mos Eisley bars and were a little more antiseptic about showing the violence directly.

 

[Search4]

Most of the forum suspected as soon as she just happened to appear at the chateau in time to shoot that Romulan in the back.

True but that is only because we were led to believe that it was a huge secret and that the Zhat Vash have no qualms at killing to keep it hidden, so we had no reason to think she was there to kill him.

Laris made it out to be some huge secret that no one but a very select few is permitted to know, even the Zhaban was sceptical although he could be in the know and was just trying to deflect.

Then all of a sudden we find out that the Commodore told Jurati who is not what I would call a reliable confidant, the only reason it could force her to keep quiet is if it is a prime directive issue, to do with time travel or most likely her work with Maddox, even then its a bit of a stretch to go from sharing cookies to offing him the way she did with no hesitation whatsoever.

There was no real need to tell Jurati, the Commodore already knows where Soji is (with Narek) and all she has gained is Jurati's help in killing him which could have been achieved far more easily in other ways without exposing the secret, they could have sent in a kill team to wipe him out and any trace he was ever there.

Its almost like the Commodore wants Picard to be involved, did she send Rizzo in after Dahj knowing that she would make a mess, exactly what kind of game is the Commodore playing.

Does knowing the secret automatically make you Zhat Vash or whatever the Federation equivalent would be, is it literally the knowing that does it, it certainly would seem so based on Jurati's actions in the episode.

Core question: why could Raffi find Maddox but the head of Starfleet Security could not?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Core question: why could Raffi find Maddox but the head of Starfleet Security could not?

PLOT!

Raffi seems more practiced in researching conspiracy theories, and she was probably deeply infatuated with everything to do with the synth ban.

 

[Gov Kodos]

More of a criticism of the Icheb dissection scene: I really think the mercy killing was a poor dramatic choice. I think other main character from Star Trek would not have done so, but Seven of Nine having different origins may make her choices more questionable. However, the scene relied heavily on knowing and remembering the relationship between Icheb and Seven of Nine. As someone who has not watched Voyager in a long time, Icheb's death didn't resonate with me as it might with others. I get that Seven felt like an aggrieved mother, but from my perspective, that grief did not feel directly connected to Seven in specific (I hope this makes sense). I makes me hesitate to see further reappearances of characters in the future, especially those who were less central to their series.

For my part, I felt a lot of factors hit Seven in Icheb's fate. The way former Borg victims were treated. The way humanity wasn't Janeway's wonderful end goal she was led to expect. Her relationship with icheb himself. Her own brittle understanding of humanity being assaulted and shattered leaving this cynical gunslinger behind. Shooting him is the start of her 'fuck the Federation Voyager sold me' persona she has 13 years later.

 

[Gonzo]

Core question: why could Raffi find Maddox but the head of Starfleet Security could not?

Exactly, it just feels off to me and the whole sequence of events feels like its one big setup.

I think the Commodore has known all along where Maddox is and even if she didn't know it would not have been hard to find out with the resources at her disposal.

It makes me think that the Commodore may not be Zhat Vash at all (possibly S31), yet she clearly knows the TRUTH, it would then make sense why she would pass it to Jurati as I cant see a Zhat Vash person doing that.

Keeping the secret for 1000's of years only to pass it on to someone like Jurati, especially if the secret is from back before the Vulcan/Romulan split, it is hardly a reliable method of keeping it that way.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

For my part, I felt a lot of factors hit Seven in Icheb's fate. The way former Borg victims were treated. The way humanity wasn't Janeway's wonderful end goal she was led to expect. Her relationship with icheb himself. Her own brittle understanding of humanity being assaulted and shattered leaving this cynical gunslinger behind. Shooting him is the start of her 'fuck the Federation Voyager sold me' persona she has 13 years later.

What I did not like is that there was far too much "said" versus "shown," when there could easily been more shown. More of the time that Seven used to explain what was happening to the Borg and how it affected her could have been transferred over to Icheb's death. We could have seen Seven struggling, and failing, to save Icheb, adding levels of guilt on top of her desire for revenge.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

However, the scene relied heavily on knowing and remembering the relationship between Icheb and Seven of Nine. As someone who has not watched Voyager in a long time, Icheb's death didn't resonate with me as it might with others. I get that Seven felt like an aggrieved mother, but from my perspective, that grief did not feel directly connected to Seven in specific (I hope this makes sense). I makes me hesitate to see further reappearances of characters in the future, especially those who were less central to their series.

I must agree on this. Having not watched Voyager, the only reason I know who Icheb was is his mention on this board in relation to Picard (i.e. earlier predictions from the trailer that maybe 7 was cradling him). I feel that was too deep a reach.

Also, I'm a bit disappointed that that's all we're going to get of 7.

 

[Gonzo]

I must agree on this. Having not watched Voyager, the only reason I know who Icheb was is his mention on this board in relation to Picard (i.e. earlier predictions from the trailer that maybe 7 was cradling him). I feel that was too deep a reach.

Also, I'm a bit disappointed that that's all we're going to get of 7.

I am pretty sure we will see her again, she gave Picard a way to contact her at the end of the episode.

 

[eschaton]

A theory that keeps getting brought up in these threads is that the big secret of the Zhat Vash and the origins of Dahj & Soji somehow relate to the creation of the Borg and the Borg queen.

I really hope that this doesn't turn out to be the case. I find that as uninteresting and uninspired as the theory V'Ger is the origin of the Borg.

Why does it always come back to the Borg? At this point it seems like the writers & part of the audience are using the Borg as a crutch for lazy writing rather than come up with a new, more interesting villain/great evil.

One of my biggest quibbles in Trek is "small quadrant syndrome."

A lot of fans seem to love adding to lore in a way that ties everything together into some mega-story. But the galaxy alone is immense in scope (as Jurati herself noted in the fourth episode). One of the reasons TOS seemed like such a wild-open show compared to the later ones is because we virtually never met the same people twice, and Kirk & co typically were tangling with low-level crises limited to a single planet/solar system.

The later shows have for the most part steadily "epiced" it up by having the protagonists directly interface with the heads of state of interstellar governments, save Earth/the quadrant/the galaxy, etc. But every time this is done, the imaginative potential of the setting shrinks a little bit more.

Right now I'm happy with the scale of Picard compared to say Discovery. One can quibble about the setup, but the stakes are small/personal, which jibes well with Picard's overall level of power at this point and the ship itself being nothing special. If it goes to Picard must save the galaxy and it all ties in to some fanwanky lore I'll be very disappointed.

 

[Lt Johnny]

What an awesome episode! Rios in his "disguise" is just hilarious. I used to like the actor, now I like the character, too.
In this episode they really found the right balance between very dark stuff (e.g. Seven & Icheb, Raffi & son) and totally funny stuff (e.g. Rios the space pimp, Picard's fake accent).