Spoilers Everyday life on earth

[robau]

So, uh, they talked about money last night. I don’t remember the lines but something about how much the trip will cost. Raf’s dwelling also opens up a can of worms.

One thing is clear is that even if your basic needs are met, having your career taken away without a new direction in your life sucks ass even in the utopia.

 

[Longinus]

So, uh, they talked about money last night. I don’t remember the lines but something about how much the trip will cost. Raf’s dwelling also opens up a can of worms.

One thing is clear is that even if your basic needs are met, having your career taken away without a new direction in your life sucks ass even in the utopia.

Yes, that was a bit messy and I didn't like it. Though it was a bit unclear what Raffi's problem exactly was. She's a depressed junkie who has lost purpose of her life. Did she live in that (relatively nice looking) box in middle of nowhere because she was 'poor' or because she just wanted to seclude herself. As for Rios, this seems to be some sort of 'unregistered' starship for dubious purposes, so one might expect it to be part of some sort of (possibly latinum based) shadow economy.

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[Longinus]

I don't think it is a retcon. A lack of money never made any sense on any level. K-7 was a Federation installation, and they clearly used money.

Except it has been stated many times loud and clear that there is no money. It is just an inconsistency. Or somehow all these things are simultaneously true, but we simply do not understand how it works, just like we do not really understand how warp drive or transporters work, but they still do in this fictional universe.

 

[BillJ]

Except it has been stated many times loud and clear that there is no money. It is just an inconsistency. Or somehow all these things are simultaneously true, but we simply do not understand how it works, just like we do not really understand how warp drive or transporters work, but they still do in this fictional universe.

The nuts and bolts of warp drive and transporters really don't matter because we understand their place in the story. Money? Well, we have it... except when we don't. Characters can state what they want. Picard said Starfleet isn't the military in "Peak Performance", yet it clearly is. We have a few characters say there is no money, except the preponderance of evidence points to the fact that the Federation is flush with money and commerce.

 

[BillJ]

I think when it comes to the Federation economy, Picard and some others are unreliable narrators. Or don't understand economics.

 

[Longinus]

I think when it comes to the Federation economy, Picard and some others are unreliable narrators. Or don't understand economics.

Or we don't understand 24th century economics? 'Oh, the character is wrong/lying/hypocrite' is in theory an answer, but it would require Picard, Kirk, Tom Paris, Jake Sisko and Nog to be all be bullshitting us, and this seems like an stretch and certainly not the intent when those lines were written.

 

[BillJ]

Or we don't understand 24th century economics? 'Oh, the character is wrong/lying/hypocrite' is in theory an answer, but it would require Picard, Kirk, Tom Paris, Jake Sisko and Nog to be all be bullshitting us, and this seems like an stretch and certainly not the intent when those lines were written.

You clearly have dialogue versus what is actually happening in the episodes. The events to me override the dialogue. Much like the "Starfleet isn't the military" clusterfuck.

 

[Longinus]

You clearly have dialogue versus what is actually happening in the episodes. The events to me override the dialogue. Much like the "Starfleet isn't the military" clusterfuck.

Well, not to me. It is all fiction anyway. That some episodes contradict each other is unfortunate, but this certainly isn't the only matter regarding which this happens.

Besides, to me the overall message the writers tied to send is mote important that some off hand remark in another episode. When Picard lectures about the 24th century economy, that is an important plot point and when it was written it certainly wasn't meant that Picard was a lying hypocrite. That Uhura used credits to acquire a tribble really isn't an important plot point. Her acquiring it is, but not the exact details of the transaction nor was the point of the episode to make commentary on economy.

 

[Racefuel]

Or we don't understand 24th century economics? 'Oh, the character is wrong/lying/hypocrite' is in theory an answer, but it would require Picard, Kirk, Tom Paris, Jake Sisko and Nog to be all be bullshitting us, and this seems like an stretch and certainly not the intent when those lines were written.

But what about when Jake Sisko says he sold his first book? How does one sell something without having the means to have it purchased?

 

[SG-17]

I don't think it was ever made clear whether the entire Federation was a post-monetary economy or if only Earth was.

But what about when Jake Sisko says he sold his first book? How does one sell something without having the means to have it purchased?

You can sell someone on an idea etc, that doesn't mean they gave you money for it. Similarly you can buy something without giving someone else money.

English is funny isn't it?

 

[fireproof78]

You clearly have dialogue versus what is actually happening in the episodes. The events to me override the dialogue. Much like the "Starfleet isn't the military" clusterfuck.

It amazes me the gymnastics done for some things over others.

 

[Longinus]

But what about when Jake Sisko says he sold his first book? How does one sell something without having the means to have it purchased?

Umm... They literally say that he actually didn't get paid:

Jake Sisko: I sold my first book today.
Quark: Really? How much did you get for it?
Jake Sisko: It's just a figure of speech. The Federation News Service is going to publish a book of my stories about life on the station under Dominion rule.
Quark: And they're not paying you?
Jake Sisko: No.
Quark: Well, then you have my sympathies, and the first round of drinks is on the house.
Jake Sisko: Really?
Quark: No. It's a figure of speech.

 

[robau]

Yes, that was a bit messy and I didn't like it. Though it was a bit unclear what Raffi's problem exactly was. She's a depressed junkie who has lost purpose of her life. Did she live in that (relatively nice looking) box in middle of nowhere because she was 'poor' or because she just wanted to seclude herself. As for Rios, this seems to be some sort of 'unregistered' starship for dubious purposes, so one might expect it to be part of some sort of (possibly latinum based) shadow economy.

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I’m taking it as seclusion, but the implication is clear. She’s poor and living in a trailer.

 

[BillJ]

It amazes me the gymnastics done for some things over others.

Actually it is more gymnastics to make both fit than to determine that one simply can't work in concert with the other.

 

[BillJ]

I’m taking it as seclusion, but the implication is clear. She’s poor and living in a trailer.

Probably living off of her Starfleet pension.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually it is more gymnastics to make both fit than to determine that one simply can't work in concert with the other.

I think what amuses me most is that the gymnastics get applied to a category but not another. "We don't understand how 24th century economics works" is apparently an acceptable explanation regarding this mishmash of statements. While "I can't imagine why a ship design would be used for 150 years!" is apparently not worth the gymnastics.

 

[Racefuel]

Umm... They literally say that he actually didn't get paid:

Jake Sisko: I sold my first book today.
Quark: Really? How much did you get for it?
Jake Sisko: It's just a figure of speech. The Federation News Service is going to publish a book of my stories about life on the station under Dominion rule.
Quark: And they're not paying you?
Jake Sisko: No.
Quark: Well, then you have my sympathies, and the first round of drinks is on the house.
Jake Sisko: Really?
Quark: No. It's a figure of speech.

mmkay, well I stand corrected on that count.

Still doesn't change the fact that the whole "no money society" thing doesn't appear to actually exist.

 

[Longinus]

I think what amuses me most is that the gymnastics get applied to a category but not another. "We don't understand how 24th century economics works" is apparently an acceptable explanation regarding this mishmash of statements. While "I can't imagine why a ship design would be used for 150 years!" is apparently not worth the gymnastics.

I'm fine with mental gymnasting the economy issues, as long at said gymnastics actually try not ignore the spirit of the moneyless economy concept and paint several characters as liars and hypocrites. I certainly have a solid enough mental model how I can see it working and fitting most of the evidence seen on screen well enough.

But ultimately with fictional setting there comes certain level of detail where we just must accept that some things 'just work' because that's how it is in this fiction and we cannot know exactly how because it is not real. Like we can know that Warp drive operates by distorting space and it is powered by anti matter reaction using deuterium and antideuterium and the power is channelled via dilithium and transferred to the warp coils using warp plasma. But how exactly do the warp coils achieve distorting the space? That we do not know, and we must just accept that they do.

 

[Longinus]

mmkay, well I stand corrected on that count.
Still doesn't change the fact that the whole "no money society" thing doesn't appear to actually exist.

It exists when writers remember it is supposed to exist and doesn't when they don't. It's like Warp speeds often seem to follow some consistent formula, but on some occasions they obviously don't. *shrug* This is just what happens when many different people contribute to the same continuous universe over the decades.

 

[BillJ]

I think what amuses me most is that the gymnastics get applied to a category but not another. "We don't understand how 24th century economics works" is apparently an acceptable explanation regarding this mishmash of statements. While "I can't imagine why a ship design would be used for 150 years!" is apparently not worth the gymnastics.

We all have hills we'll die on.