Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[Damian]

Problem is, that's only addressing stuff from the first episode or two. Admittedly that's likely to be a load of the big inconsistencies dropped, but with Picard now going to at least two seasons and I suppose, the chances improving of another show in about the same era with other DS9, Voyager and TNG cast, it's going to get increasingly difficult to rationalise.

We have eight more episodes yet - many with flashbacks plus Lower Decks is going to be set in 2380 and is also going to be canon. Over time, the chances of this still fitting is as much as Spock being Captain of the USS Surak...

Yeah, I tend to agree. As of today, maybe you could do a little fancy retconning and eye winking, and maybe some creative storytelling to get things to line up.

BUT, we've only just begun. Each episode of Picard has the potential to throw things out of sync even more, maybe dramatically so. One appearance of the Borg Collective, or even just mentioning they are still a threat, would have a significant impact on the entire litverse. Or that Picard was never married and childless.

It's probably not even worth the effort right now to find ways they can be made consistent because each week you'd have to re-evaluate everything again. Then again the week after. At this point it'd probably be more worthwhile just to wait until the season ends and see where we're at. But I suspect very little of the litverse will be able to be continued as is. I think the show is going to be so inconsistent with the novels that the best you'd be able to do is consider them a parallel universe.

Though I guess as Sci noted it's sort of like a puzzle. See what pieces can fit together each week.

 

[The Wormhole]

So far the biggest incompatibilities I can see are:

• Picard still mourning Data as dead in 2399 vs Data 2.0 coming to life in 2384
• Seven still having her Borg implants and being actively hostile to Starfleet, implying she didn't return to the Delta Quadrant and there was no Project Full Circle
• The continued existence of the Borg cube and of Borg drones cut off from the Collective, implying the continued existence of the Collective itself
• The implication that Picard and Beverly did not marry and have a child in 2380
• The Romulan Star Empire needing to ask the Federation for assistance evacuating its capital planets seems weird if they're part of the Typhon Pact
• The major events of 2385-2386 are different. Sept.-Oct. 2385 in the Litverse sees the assassination of Nanietta Bacco and the rise and fall of Ishan Anjar, followed in 2386 with the exposure of Section 31 and the purging of Control from Uraei's system. The canonical 2385 now has a major, Federation-changing event occurring in April 2385 in the form of the Synth attack on Mars.

Also, Picard made Admiral, which in the Litverse he can't.

 

[JoeZhang]

Yeah, I tend to agree. As of today, maybe you could do a little fancy retconning and eye winking, and maybe some creative storytelling to get things to line up.

BUT, we've only just begun. Each episode of Picard has the potential to throw things out of sync even more, maybe dramatically so. One appearance of the Borg Collective, or even just mentioning they are still a threat, would have a significant impact on the entire litverse. Or that Picard was never married and childless.

Plus if the shows continue to successful - we will get more live action shows (there are at least two other shows planned) and each one will chip away at the litverse...

 

[Damian]

Also, Picard made Admiral, which in the Litverse he can't.

Well, I wouldn't totally rule it out. If that was the only thing that was inconsistent you could create a scenario where there's some crisis or some event that causes Starfleet brass to reconsider making Picard an admiral.

But there is a whole lot of things with Picard that make it tough to reconcile. That's just something else to put on the pile.

 

[Stephen!]

So far the biggest incompatibilities I can see are:

• Picard still mourning Data as dead in 2399 vs Data 2.0 coming to life in 2384
• Seven still having her Borg implants and being actively hostile to Starfleet, implying she didn't return to the Delta Quadrant and there was no Project Full Circle
• The continued existence of the Borg cube and of Borg drones cut off from the Collective, implying the continued existence of the Collective itself
• The implication that Picard and Beverly did not marry and have a child in 2380
• The Romulan Star Empire needing to ask the Federation for assistance evacuating its capital planets seems weird if they're part of the Typhon Pact
• The major events of 2385-2386 are different. Sept.-Oct. 2385 in the Litverse sees the assassination of Nanietta Bacco and the rise and fall of Ishan Anjar, followed in 2386 with the exposure of Section 31 and the purging of Control from Uraei's system. The canonical 2385 now has a major, Federation-changing event occurring in April 2385 in the form of the Synth attack on Mars.

And Hugh being dead, since Christopher Bennett killed him off in "Greater than the Sum"

 

[thribs]

Another inconsistency is that he actually acts like Picard in the books, while in the show he doesn’t.

 

[Damian]

Another inconsistency is that he actually acts like Picard in the books, while in the show he doesn’t.

That's a concern I have with the show. In the books the Federation is trying to move forward, in a positive direction. You have people in power, the President, Admiral Akaar, and others who are trying to move the Federation forward. And you're right, Captain Picard in the novels is largely the Captain Picard we all know and love from TNG. Yes, things have happened, and he has changed in certain ways that we all change as we get older. But at his core he is who he is. A man with high ethical standards for himself and others. He's not proud of his involvement with Section 31 (though he wasn't aware of their involvement at the time) and not only is ready to face the consequences, he wants to face the consequences.

The concern about things I've seen and heard about the show so far indicates a Picard who's not the same man we remember. And I'm just not fond of this idea that the Federation/Starfleet has gone to the dark side (well, not in an evil way, just bad stuff happened to the Federation and they responded from fear).

I was really hoping Picard would have the same feel as TNG--that the Federation/Starfleet was still moving in a positive direction (even if they make mistakes now and then). The world around us is a dark place a lot of the time as it is. Can't we just get away from that even if it's an hour a week. I don't have a problem with Picard facing challenges and difficulties. It just would have been nice if we could have a show where the system (Starfleet in this case, not just characters but the fleet itself) had his back and was trying to help him.

While I'd love for TNG novels to continue, I did like how "Collateral Damage" ended. That Captain Picard and his crew of the Enterprise were back on the job boldly going to the unknown.

 

[JoeZhang]

In the books the Federation is trying to move forward, in a positive direction.

Sure as long as you ignore that in the books it was revealed that the Federation was secretly a dystopia where an AI was pulling the strings behind the scenes and murdering anyone that got in its way.

Plus that one book where Bashir commits war crimes by murdering unarmed engineers.

 

[Damian]

Sure as long as you ignore that in the books it was revealed that the Federation was secretly a dystopia where an AI was pulling the strings behind the scenes and murdering anyone that got in its way.

Plus that one book where Bashir commits war crimes by murdering unarmed engineers.

I was talking about the people of the Federation, esp. the people in power. President Bacco, the current President (sorry I forget the name off the top of my head), Admiral Akaar. Bacco wasn't aware of Uraei and Akaar and the current President were horrified to learn of the extent of Section 31s actions.

The Federation isn't perfect. Nor should it be. It's run by mortals who make mistakes. But in general, they usually take 2 steps forward for every step back.

Did Control exert it's influence? Of course. But like Captain Picard, I don't think it was responsible for every action every Starfleet officer, crewmember and citizen of the Federation took. We are each responsible for our own actions and the people last in power at the Federation and at Starfleet were actively moving things forward.

And unlike Picard, in the novels people like Admiral Akaar were trying to help Captain Picard, even behind the scenes. The system was helping Captain Picard because they recognized he was the kind of Starfleet officer they needed. Someone with high moral and ethical standards who while not perfect, who while he has made mistakes, does not hide from his history and more times then not does the right thing. That's kind of how I hoped Picard would be thematically. Even if the stories don't line up, I had hoped the philosophies would. But it's early yet. Perhaps in time all that will happen still.

 

[Stephen!]

Plus that one book where Bashir commits war crimes by murdering unarmed engineers.

Bashir seemed like he was faced with lousy options either way. Either shoot the engineers and give them a quick death, or stun them - hope they don't recover in time to undo his attempts to destroy the stolen slipstream schematics, and then they die anyway when the facility blows up.

 

[David Mack]

Bashir seemed like he was faced with lousy options either way. Either shoot the engineers and give them a quick death, or stun them - hope they don't recover in time to undo his attempts to destroy the stolen slipstream schematics, and then they die anyway when the facility blows up.

It's also important to note that in subsequent novels, Bashir was haunted by his actions on Salavat, and he openly repudiated them in A Ceremony of Losses. His sacrifice of his career and freedom at the end of that novel were his acts of contrition, his repentance for what he did. Remember that sometimes we play a long game in the tie-in fiction....

 

[David Weller]

Remember that sometimes we play a long game in the tie-in fiction....

That’s what I like about the litverse: the long game.

 

[JD]

So far the biggest incompatibilities I can see are:

• Picard still mourning Data as dead in 2399 vs Data 2.0 coming to life in 2384
• Seven still having her Borg implants and being actively hostile to Starfleet, implying she didn't return to the Delta Quadrant and there was no Project Full Circle
• The continued existence of the Borg cube and of Borg drones cut off from the Collective, implying the continued existence of the Collective itself
• The implication that Picard and Beverly did not marry and have a child in 2380
• The Romulan Star Empire needing to ask the Federation for assistance evacuating its capital planets seems weird if they're part of the Typhon Pact
• The major events of 2385-2386 are different. Sept.-Oct. 2385 in the Litverse sees the assassination of Nanietta Bacco and the rise and fall of Ishan Anjar, followed in 2386 with the exposure of Section 31 and the purging of Control from Uraei's system. The canonical 2385 now has a major, Federation-changing event occurring in April 2385 in the form of the Synth attack on Mars.

But so far -- and again, we're only two episodes into this, so this could all totally change -- I find myself suspecting that TrekLit authors might be able to reconcile their continuity with the canon. Picard, for instance, may not regard Data 2.0 as an actual continuation of Data, but as a separate being given Data's memories. (Coincidentally, this is how I view Data 2.0.) If there's nothing PIC episodes actively denying that Starfleet ever returned to the Delta Quadrant, then we can probably keep that in our headcanons. The Caeliar may not have been 100% in their removal of disconnected Borg drones and tech -- if the Collective itself never appears, we may not have any real problem reconciling the Artifact with Destiny. So far, there's no explicit denial that Picard and Beverly had Rene -- maybe their marriage failed around the time Picard left Starfleet, and she took Rene to raise herself, one of the regrets haunting Picard in 2399? If the Romulans under Praetor Gell Kamemor got too cozy with the Feds, I could see the Pact -- maybe under the influence of hostile Pact members like the Breen or the Tzenkethi -- refusing to help.

We'd probably either have to fudge the dates on 2385-2386 and assume that the events of The Fall happened a year earlier (which wouldn't bother me -- The Fall's reference to Bacco's re-election in 2384 didn't line up with the established four-year election cycle for Federation Presidents), or we'd have to assume that the Mars attack and the anti-Synth backlash was happening "off-screen" between books, and that the assassination of Bacco maybe contributed to the Federation's reactionary drift over the next decade and a half. Maybe President zh'Tarash lost re-election and the next President was a reactionary in the vein of Baras Rodiyra?

Obviously we'd have to squint and accept a few retcons, but I do feel like it might be possible to reconcile these things so far. (I also feel like the next few episodes are likely to make me eat my words, but it's a fun mental exercise for the moment...)

I believe Picard had already left Starfleet by the point where the novels are.

 

[Leto_II]

^ Yup.

Spoiler: "The End is the Beginning"

Today's new episode canonically places his resignation way back in 2385 (or maybe 2386, if Raffi's "fourteen years ago"-line is accurate).

 

[ryan123450]

I’m really expecting at this point that the big reveal of the season is that the Romulans created the Borg, which means the Litverse isn’t just divergent from canon starting around Nemesis, but really a whole seperate playing out of history. Makes my hoped for/expected ‘Crisis on Infinite Treks’ harder to accomplish, but I still have my fingers crossed for an in-universe reset of some kind coming at some point.

 

[Sci]

Though I guess as Sci noted it's sort of like a puzzle. See what pieces can fit together each week.

That is 100% the mental game I'm playing with myself as I watch the show.

And Hugh being dead, since Christopher Bennett killed him off in "Greater than the Sum"

I completely forgot about Hugh's death.

That's a concern I have with the show. In the books the Federation is trying to move forward, in a positive direction. You have people in power, the President, Admiral Akaar, and others who are trying to move the Federation forward. And you're right, Captain Picard in the novels is largely the Captain Picard we all know and love from TNG. Yes, things have happened, and he has changed in certain ways that we all change as we get older. But at his core he is who he is. A man with high ethical standards for himself and others. He's not proud of his involvement with Section 31 (though he wasn't aware of their involvement at the time) and not only is ready to face the consequences, he wants to face the consequences.

The concern about things I've seen and heard about the show so far indicates a Picard who's not the same man we remember. And I'm just not fond of this idea that the Federation/Starfleet has gone to the dark side (well, not in an evil way, just bad stuff happened to the Federation and they responded from fear).

I mean, all I can say here is that we have seen the Federation make decisions based upon fear, and we have seen Picard lead them to the light. I think PIC will be doing that basic arc again, but in a more complex, realistic manner that will have more consequences and costs than, say, Picard pretending to leave Starfleet to save the Ba'ku and then everything turning out fine in the end like in INS.

As Picard himself is the same man we've always known and loved. He's a man of such high ethical principles that he refused to serve an organization that would turn their backs on billions of innocent Romulans and cast them to the wolves, and who is now trying to fight the isolationism and chauvinism that has infected Federation politics.

I was really hoping Picard would have the same feel as TNG--that the Federation/Starfleet was still moving in a positive direction (even if they make mistakes now and then). The world around us is a dark place a lot of the time as it is. Can't we just get away from that even if it's an hour a week.

I think we have very different coping mechanisms for reality when it comes to our art. I actively want a story about how the Federation has fallen into darkness and needs to redeem itself, because I hope that a story like that can help inspire my society to redeem itself from the darkness it has fallen into. There's nothing wrong with just wanting an inspirational story without that, but I would point out that we did see that scenario 176 times in TNG and, I would argue, 170-something times on VOY.

I believe Picard had already left Starfleet by the point where the novels are.

^ Yup.

Spoiler: "The End is the Beginning"

Today's new episode canonically places his resignation way back in 2385 (or maybe 2386, if Raffi's "fourteen years ago"-line is accurate).

Yeah, we'd definitely have to squint a bit and re-set the timeframe for the 2385 books into 2384 or 2383.

I’m really expecting at this point that the big reveal of the season is that the Romulans created the Borg

Well, that would be quite the reveal. I don't really see the thematic logic there, but anything's possible!

 

[thribs]

Funny that in the novels, 2385 was the year Andoria left the Federation and the Fall story arc happened.

 

[Sci]

Funny that in the novels, 2385 was the year Andoria left the Federation and the Fall story arc happened.

Yeah, '85 was The Fall, but the Andorian Empire seceded from the Federation in 2382 in the Typhon Pact novel Paths of Disharmony. The Fall novels A Ceremony of Losses and Peaceable Kingdoms featured Andor re-joining the Federation -- just in time for the Parliament Andoria's Leader of the Opposition, Kellessar zh'Tarash of the Progressive Party, to run for (and become) Federation President in the 2385 special election.

So 2385 is a period of culminating darkness and then renewal and hope in the LitVerse -- whereas in the canon, 2385 is the start of a prolonged period of isolationism, xenophobia, and reaction.

 

[thribs]

I wonder if Hugh has all his "parts"? He didn't in the novels which is why he needed Crusher's help for his wife.

 

[USS Firefly]

Remember that sometimes we play a long game in the tie-in fiction....

And that you have a plan right?
What is that plan again???