Actual clear evidence.
Spoilers Spyfall, Part Two grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
- Start date
Actual clear evidence.
I feel bad now I'm putting my post in spoilers
When it comes to the Timelords I wouldn't put anything past them. To my mind there are several possibilities.
1. The Master has destroyed Gallifrey and it stays destroyed.
2. The Master thinks he's destroyed Gallifrey but the Timelords are messing with him.
3. The Master hasn't destroyed Gallifrey but he's making the Doctor thinks he has.
4. The Master has destroyed Gallifrey but the Doctor will undo this in a timey wimey fashion.
Of those I'm guessing it'll be 2 or 4, most likely 2 given Gallifrey exists outside of normal time (I believe?)
1. The Master has destroyed Gallifrey and it stays destroyed.
2. The Master thinks he's destroyed Gallifrey but the Timelords are messing with him.
3. The Master hasn't destroyed Gallifrey but he's making the Doctor thinks he has.
4. The Master has destroyed Gallifrey but the Doctor will undo this in a timey wimey fashion.
Of those I'm guessing it'll be 2 or 4, most likely 2 given Gallifrey exists outside of normal time (I believe?)
Not for nothing, but Galifrey should be a race of people with others as smart or smarter than the Master. I find it hard to believe the guy can just destroy everything. Plus, I thought Galifrey was inaccessible.
Destroying Gallifrey should be a big f'ing deal, not something just casually mentioned in a few lines of dialogue and a couple seconds of CGI. The previous seasons did it right. They had the Time War, a huge war against the mighty Daleks and the War Doctor used a WMD to destroy both Gallifrey and the Daleks. It was given the seriousness it deserved. And the previous seasons made a big deal about saving Gallifrey with a long story arc leading up to the epic multi-doctor special. But for the Master to just go "I destroyed it" with no explanation seems too easy and too flippant. Hopefully, there is more going on.
Not sure what to make of the "timeless child" mystery. What would be so terrible about this lie that it would warrant the Master destroying Gallifrey? And they tried to have a big mystery about the Doctor's true origins during the Capaldi era with the Hybrid and it did not really work very well. Hopefully, Chibnall will do better with this idea. But I am also not sure why the Doctor needs a special origin story. Is being an eccentric Time Lord who stole a Tardis and travels the universe in space and time having crazy adventures not good enough?We shall see.
The two parter itself was quite good I thought.
Not sure what to make of the "timeless child" mystery. What would be so terrible about this lie that it would warrant the Master destroying Gallifrey? And they tried to have a big mystery about the Doctor's true origins during the Capaldi era with the Hybrid and it did not really work very well. Hopefully, Chibnall will do better with this idea. But I am also not sure why the Doctor needs a special origin story. Is being an eccentric Time Lord who stole a Tardis and travels the universe in space and time having crazy adventures not good enough?We shall see.
The two parter itself was quite good I thought.
It was "at the end of time", not sure how that's inaccessable. Time Lord logic I guess.
Someone with, say, a time machine could probably get there.
I half expected her to lead them to a small cafe to hide in the closet of an old woman in an upstairs bedroom.
DenOfGeek raises an interesting point that the mindwiping in this ep might be tied to the Master's claims that the truth about the Timeless Child is "buried" in the Doctor's memories, as it was his. What if the pair of them learned the truth much earlier but were mindwiped of it, though the betrayal was still in their subconscious so they both rebelled against Time Lord culture but didn't really know why?
I half expected her to lead them to a small cafe to hide in the closet of an old woman in an upstairs bedroom.
I expected a "Listen very carefully" gag at least. Especially given it could be merged with the Master's "Please attend carefully" line...
So, I'm judging both episode here. Basically... meh. I didn't hate it, didn't love it. Lots of things to nitpick, most of which are the obvious.
Really disappointed at the aliens. Reminded me of The Visitation and how all them aliens didn't really have a name per se, they were just all the same race and everything with one goal. Why can't humans be like that. Their scheme was alright but I was not awed. The multiple Earths didn't work the way I thought was going to work, and I dunno what to say. Also, The Master nuked Gallifrey... How? I mean, sure, we didn't know how the Doctor did it when the NuWho started either, but we did get the indication that it occured during a cataclysmic, monumentous struggle of beyond epic proportions. Here, its like an afterthought. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Maybe they shoulda blasted the whole planet again? Also, as was said, curious how easily the Doctor materialized there, right? Heaven Sent negated, right there!
I guess this really says a lot. The fact that the Gallifrey stuff intrigued me more than the main story, and there's a reason for that. Jodie as the Doctor simply isn't there. She doesn't inhabit the character. She's not the Doctor. She's playing the Doctor, as if she was hired for the job (well, joke's on me, I guess). And the companions continue to underwhelm. Ryan continues to be written like a dope, and Yaz, the cop of the group, is nothing of the short. Amazingly, only Graham stands out, and I give kudos to Walsh for holding my attention. His bits with the shoe were my favorites of the two-parter.
Sacha Dhawan is OK. Which means, he's probably the weakest Master yet. At least Simm got to shine in his personal moments with Tennant, and later with Capaldi and Gomez. At least Beevers got to expand (and how!) his version as the creepiest, scariest of them all (and my personal fave). At least Ainley got to be good. So, on that note, I'm hoping Dhawan can get to strike a happy balance as otherwise, given this two-parter, he's all over the place. I like his scenes with the Doctor in the Eiffell Tower, but not in 1834, where they SHOULD have adressed his change of hearts, even peripherally. I get the "casual fan shouldn't feel disoriented" but, come on. Its series 12, in a 55 year old program. Its not like them talking about the Autons from 1971 (which you the Moff would actually probbaly do, just to do it). I like the idea he's inbetween Simm and Gomez, but it seems highly unlikely.
Anyway, I can't muster any more interest for this. I'll see the rest of the series, of course. But I am about to stop hoping for improvements. The show's in trouble, in my eyes, and it likely won't change this season. Ah, well.
Really disappointed at the aliens. Reminded me of The Visitation and how all them aliens didn't really have a name per se, they were just all the same race and everything with one goal. Why can't humans be like that. Their scheme was alright but I was not awed. The multiple Earths didn't work the way I thought was going to work, and I dunno what to say. Also, The Master nuked Gallifrey... How? I mean, sure, we didn't know how the Doctor did it when the NuWho started either, but we did get the indication that it occured during a cataclysmic, monumentous struggle of beyond epic proportions. Here, its like an afterthought. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Maybe they shoulda blasted the whole planet again? Also, as was said, curious how easily the Doctor materialized there, right? Heaven Sent negated, right there!
I guess this really says a lot. The fact that the Gallifrey stuff intrigued me more than the main story, and there's a reason for that. Jodie as the Doctor simply isn't there. She doesn't inhabit the character. She's not the Doctor. She's playing the Doctor, as if she was hired for the job (well, joke's on me, I guess). And the companions continue to underwhelm. Ryan continues to be written like a dope, and Yaz, the cop of the group, is nothing of the short. Amazingly, only Graham stands out, and I give kudos to Walsh for holding my attention. His bits with the shoe were my favorites of the two-parter.
Sacha Dhawan is OK. Which means, he's probably the weakest Master yet. At least Simm got to shine in his personal moments with Tennant, and later with Capaldi and Gomez. At least Beevers got to expand (and how!) his version as the creepiest, scariest of them all (and my personal fave). At least Ainley got to be good. So, on that note, I'm hoping Dhawan can get to strike a happy balance as otherwise, given this two-parter, he's all over the place. I like his scenes with the Doctor in the Eiffell Tower, but not in 1834, where they SHOULD have adressed his change of hearts, even peripherally. I get the "casual fan shouldn't feel disoriented" but, come on. Its series 12, in a 55 year old program. Its not like them talking about the Autons from 1971 (which you the Moff would actually probbaly do, just to do it). I like the idea he's inbetween Simm and Gomez, but it seems highly unlikely.
Anyway, I can't muster any more interest for this. I'll see the rest of the series, of course. But I am about to stop hoping for improvements. The show's in trouble, in my eyes, and it likely won't change this season. Ah, well.
watching it again - I do wonder if that scene at the end about "who are you?" where the Doctor provides some basic lore to Graham and the others is simply there to flash back to in the finale when we find out that it's either not true at all or not all of it is true...
I'll just give brief thoughts about the whole story in one post.
Mostly boring, shit aliens, companions sucked like always, but the new Master was decent and The Doctor was probably the best she's been so far, which shows even more to me that Jodie would be a really good Doctor if she was giving material that wasn't shit. This is easily the best Chibnail story of his era, but that isn't saying much.
6/10
That said, fuck the ending. STOP DESTRYOING GALIFREY AND THE TIME LORDS. Classic Who tols some interesting stories with the Doctor's home/people, and the fact that NuWho mostly ignored it even after bringing it back was pathetic. Maybe we can have a few less stories set in modern day/close to modern day UK, and more in places like Galifrey and alien planets in general, especially when Chibnail can only produce 12 episodes every 2 years.
The preview for the next episode looks like a standard boring as fuck Chibnail episode that will be forgotten before its even finished airing. Here's hoping that The Master and other elements of actual Doctor Who show up again this season (I think I saw at least one Cybermen in a recent trailer).
Mostly boring, shit aliens, companions sucked like always, but the new Master was decent and The Doctor was probably the best she's been so far, which shows even more to me that Jodie would be a really good Doctor if she was giving material that wasn't shit. This is easily the best Chibnail story of his era, but that isn't saying much.
6/10
That said, fuck the ending. STOP DESTRYOING GALIFREY AND THE TIME LORDS. Classic Who tols some interesting stories with the Doctor's home/people, and the fact that NuWho mostly ignored it even after bringing it back was pathetic. Maybe we can have a few less stories set in modern day/close to modern day UK, and more in places like Galifrey and alien planets in general, especially when Chibnail can only produce 12 episodes every 2 years.
The preview for the next episode looks like a standard boring as fuck Chibnail episode that will be forgotten before its even finished airing. Here's hoping that The Master and other elements of actual Doctor Who show up again this season (I think I saw at least one Cybermen in a recent trailer).
A 6 from me.
I liked part two a lot better than part one - but I agree with the sentiment that destroying/hiding/screwing over Gallifrey in a major way as an ongoing plot point for the new Timelord is getting OLD fast.
I guess the title of the painting: "Gallifrey Falls No More" from the 2013 50th anniversary special was in error.
I got a very Steven Moffat style story vibe from this whole opening two-parter. A lot of disjointed running around with a lot of red herrings and in the end, not much of it makes sense beyond: "Hey, 'The Master' is back..." and "Gallifrey is screwed over yet again...dun...dun...dun..."
I liked part two a lot better than part one - but I agree with the sentiment that destroying/hiding/screwing over Gallifrey in a major way as an ongoing plot point for the new Timelord is getting OLD fast.
I guess the title of the painting: "Gallifrey Falls No More" from the 2013 50th anniversary special was in error.
I got a very Steven Moffat style story vibe from this whole opening two-parter. A lot of disjointed running around with a lot of red herrings and in the end, not much of it makes sense beyond: "Hey, 'The Master' is back..." and "Gallifrey is screwed over yet again...dun...dun...dun..."
I will leave you with some wacky speculation I've read
The corporation in this is called VOR and Master is Agent O so is VOR = VR + O?
I gave it an 8, but I was probably being a bit generous. Definitely some good parts to it. Great to see the Master back with one of his classic plans. Work with aliens towards an evil end with the ultimate goal of double-crossing them! Classic! Of course, it all goes wrong. Also classic.
The concept for the aliens was interesting. From another universe, beyond even the Doctor's technology to understand, able to break into the TARDIS! Exciting stuff. But, they were fairly dull onscreen. I suppose, as the Doctor explained, they weren't as stable in our universe as they would have wanted. Kind of explains about how they were so powerful yet, at the same time, kind of ineffective. Just glowing light that would appear.
The escape from the plane was fun but, if they open the Bill & Ted method of solving problems, where does that end?!
Like the first part, this episode tried to be action oriented but ended up being very talky.
I did not like the destruction of the Gallifrey by the Master. We just saved the darn place. I'm also very leery about Chibnall recasting Gallifrey lore. Doing that in an interesting manner is a tall order, and I just don't trust Chibnall's story telling abilities at this point.
Total speculation on my part, but I'm guessing that the finale will reveal the new origins of Time Lords to be connected to humans/Earth. That we evolve into them, maybe over millions of years, and thereby explaining how humans and Time Lords look the same. Also, a subconscious knowledge of that connection would explain the Doctor's fondness for protecting Earth.
The concept for the aliens was interesting. From another universe, beyond even the Doctor's technology to understand, able to break into the TARDIS! Exciting stuff. But, they were fairly dull onscreen. I suppose, as the Doctor explained, they weren't as stable in our universe as they would have wanted. Kind of explains about how they were so powerful yet, at the same time, kind of ineffective. Just glowing light that would appear.
The escape from the plane was fun but, if they open the Bill & Ted method of solving problems, where does that end?!
Like the first part, this episode tried to be action oriented but ended up being very talky.
I did not like the destruction of the Gallifrey by the Master. We just saved the darn place. I'm also very leery about Chibnall recasting Gallifrey lore. Doing that in an interesting manner is a tall order, and I just don't trust Chibnall's story telling abilities at this point.
Total speculation on my part, but I'm guessing that the finale will reveal the new origins of Time Lords to be connected to humans/Earth. That we evolve into them, maybe over millions of years, and thereby explaining how humans and Time Lords look the same. Also, a subconscious knowledge of that connection would explain the Doctor's fondness for protecting Earth.
Just to be clear, though: Gallifrey's not destroyed. It looks like no Time Lords survived, but the planet's very much still there. So it hasn't been destroyed again.