Poll Is Rey a Mary Sue?

[fireproof78]

Well, the Falcon was a pretty high value Rebel target. I guess mostly I'm talking about the way he operates. He just seems to be a much firmer part of the command structure. Without Force powers, he might just be another Tarkin.

Was the Falcon high value enough to warrant and entire Star Destroyer lost?

I think that's another quick in-universe explanation. The fact it needed to be pointed out in a commentary kinda speaks for itself.

Yes, I prefer in universe explanations. I don't think it needed to be point out in commentary, largely because I had gleaned the same idea from the Visual Dictionary and the like. I just appreciated the fact that Abrams was including Poe's wide eyed look in a blink and you miss kind of detail.

 

[HugeLobes]

Was the Falcon high value enough to warrant and entire Star Destroyer lost?

I don't see why not. It did help blow up the Death Star and was strongly associated with Leia, a very important leader. Of course, the main drive seemed to be finding Luke, which became a huge priority. But I think the ultimate reason that Star Destroyer got destroyed was to show the audience how driving and tenacious Vader was - same with choking Imperial commanders to death.

Guess I prefer looking at things that way than getting at in-universe explanations, which I know puts me at odds with most of the fandom. I know most people on here disagree with my assessments of Rey and the First Order, but I was mainly using them to point out why some people might consider Rey a Mary Sue.

Of course, some good old-fashioned misogyny doesn't hurt either. I can't remember that label being thrown around as much when Trek 2009 came out.

 

[fireproof78]

Guess I prefer looking at things that way than getting at in-universe explanations, which I know puts me at odds with most of the fandom. I know most people on here disagree with my assessments of Rey and the First Order, but I was mainly using them to point out why some people might consider Rey a Mary Sue.

Oh, I can look at it both ways. I don't have an issue with real world explanations. I just prefer in universe since it is more immersive. But, that requires a bit more imagination, a bit more work, like reading novels or other material.

Same with the Rey as a Mary Sue argument. Can I see the arguments being made? Yes, I can. But, I don't agree with them. If we are going to bring in real world considerations then almost every single casting decision could be considered "agenda driven." Why was Koening given the wig he had on in Star Trek TOS season 2? To look like the Monkees and bring in a younger demographic. You had a great example with Kirk in ST 09. Why is he captain at the end? Because people know "Captain Kirk."

Bring it back to Star Wars. Why was the Empire defeated by Ewoks? Because Lucas wanted a Vietnam allegory.

All this stuff is par for the course in film making.

 

[JD]

I think the difference between Kylo and Vader is that Kylo is useful because he's a Sith Lord, whereas Vader is useful because of his various leadership skills.

Kylo Ren is not a Sith Lord, he's a Knight of Ren. A lot of people think that any Dark Side user is a Sith Lord, but the Sith are a very specific group. We don't know a ton about Kylo, Snoke, and the Knights of Ren, but one thing the promotional material has made clear is that they are a separate group from the Sith.

 

[HugeLobes]

Kylo Ren is not a Sith Lord, he's a Knight of Ren. A lot of people think that any Dark Side user is a Sith Lord, but the Sith are a very specific group. We don't know a ton about Kylo, Snoke, and the Knights of Ren, but one thing the promotional material has made clear is that they are a separate group from the Sith.

My bad. Not really up on the new movies. But switch Sith Lord for Dark Side user and the point still stands. For the majority of the audience they probably mean the same thing.

Oh, I can look at it both ways. I don't have an issue with real world explanations. I just prefer in universe since it is more immersive. But, that requires a bit more imagination, a bit more work, like reading novels or other material.

I prefer real world explanations because that’s where the in-world ones have their root. I think it comes down more to whether you’re analysing something more as its own world or if you’re looking at it as a creative work. There’s also a kind of creative ‘Ship of Theseus’ argument with Star Wars or any such franchise where you can kinda question whether it remains the same thing.

I don’t have a problem with either approach, but I do think the in-universe explanations are relied on a little too much. ‘More imagination’ sometimes means going way beyond anything that’s in the script.

 

[fireproof78]

I don’t have a problem with either approach, but I do think the in-universe explanations are relied on a little too much. ‘More imagination’ sometimes means going way beyond anything that’s in the script.

Yes, it does involve that. That's why I prefer it.

I love and respect the artistic endeavors of filmmakers, authors and the like. But, they do not think about this stuff a lot of the times. I love reading BTS stuff, but half the stuff that ends up in final production is because time, budget and limitations. The example I immediately think of is the episode where most of the Enterprise crew are turned in to Styrofoam cubes to save on extras.

Real world explanations are interesting in their own right and enjoyable. Certainly highly informative of the creative process. But, they don't allow for the creative efforts of fans to imagine this world beyond what's presented on screen and in the script.

It's a weird balancing act that has to be struck.

 

[HugeLobes]

Yes, it does involve that. That's why I prefer it.

Ah well, it's exactly why I don't. If I wrote a university paper on Moby Dick and made assertions beyond what's presented in the book or by the author, I'd be admonished. I prefer to approach things like this in the same way. When you go 'way beyond anything that’s in the script' you're not really supporting your point with anything but speculation. I don't really mind that in itself, but I do find that those points are sometimes relied upon as if they're gospel when really things could go either way. There's also the issue of how far you see different media from the same franchise as connected.

But again, I do understand that this puts me at odds with how most people like to view and think about these movies.

 

[fireproof78]

Ah well, it's exactly why I don't. If I wrote a university paper on Moby Dick and made assertions beyond what's presented in the book or by the author, I'd be admonished. I prefer to approach things like this in the same way. When you go 'way beyond anything that’s in the script' you're not really supporting your point with anything but speculation. I don't really mind that in itself, but I do find that those points are sometimes relied upon as if they're gospel when really things could go either way. There's also the issue of how far you see different media from the same franchise as connected.

Well, for starters, fandom is not an academic exercise, in general. Certainly I would not try to engage with any of the materials I enjoy the same way I wrote my graduate research papers. It is an altogether different animal.

Secondly, I would not treat any fan speculation, including my own, as "gospel." That would be the height of arrogance, in my view. Same with any ancillary material. All it can offer is another interpretation, another point of view, of a work.

Finally, if you would like, I would be happy to write up academic papers

 

[HugeLobes]

Well, for starters, fandom is not an academic exercise, in general. Certainly I would not try to engage with any of the materials I enjoy the same way I wrote my graduate research papers. It is an altogether different animal.

Secondly, I would not treat any fan speculation, including my own, as "gospel." That would be the height of arrogance, in my view. Same with any ancillary material. All it can offer is another interpretation, another point of view, of a work.

Finally, if you would like, I would be happy to write up academic papers

Okay ... if I get paid to mark them.

I know it's different. It's not like I think we should be using quotes or creating bibliographies. I just think the text itself is paramount.

 

[fireproof78]

I know it's different. It's not like I think we should be using quotes or creating bibliographies. I just think the text itself is paramount.

I completely agree. Any interpretation of the text would be secondary to what is presented within the text itself. Unfortunately, we are not able to see all information that informs the text. So, speculation is a little more common with the arts than other human endeavors.

For instance, the moment I mentioned with Poe is in the text. He is looking around in shock at the size of the First Order. So, it is a surprise to him. How they got that power is more a subject of speculation. But, his surprise is in the text.

 

[HugeLobes]

For instance, the moment I mentioned with Poe is in the text. He is looking around in shock at the size of the First Order. So, it is a surprise to him. How they got that power is more a subject of speculation. But, his surprise is in the text.

Yeah, this is a good example. Problem is you often see things like that used to completely invalidate any argument that the First Order gained power unrealistically fast when it's really just part of the argument.

Thing is, I don't really want to mention any examples I've run into of people stating something is as good as true with no support from the movies because the people who made them are probably also on this thread.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, this is a good example. Problem is you often see things like that used to completely invalidate any argument that the First Order gained power unrealistically fast when it's really just part of the argument.

I think, like the topic of this thread, the argument could go both ways. I could make the argument that the First Order was ignored as a threat and allowed to grow, while the New Republic stood by and did nothing.

That's kind of the fun of it all, if we keep the personal aspect out of it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

By ESB they are far more willing to kowtow.

That's because Vader killed the officers like Ozzel who didn't kowtow.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Fin spent ten years in an education tank.

When he was put in there, it's entirely possible that he was being educated to loyally serve a completely different faction.

Snope is old school. Did he create the first order, or did he take over, when they started looking interesting to him?

 

[Spot261]

I get the impression the First Order was too big to simply be the remaining scraps of The Empire, my take is that Palpatine likely had a lot of what we see onscreen in the works before he died as a fallback option.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I get the impression the First Order was too big to simply be the remaining scraps of The Empire, my take is that Palpatine likely had a lot of what we see onscreen in the works before he died as a fallback option.

Heir to the Empire trilogy novels.

Thrawn took 3/4s of the Emperial fleet out into unknown space for "reasons" a few years before New Hope.

If 3/4s of the fleet was "missing" that may explain why the Emperor thought that he needed deathstars, and why a rag tag rebel fleet of mostly century plus year old ships flown by inbred farmboys stood a chance against an actual military.

 

[Campe]

Heir to the Empire trilogy novels.

Thrawn took 3/4s of the Emperial fleet out into unknown space for "reasons" a few years before New Hope.

If 3/4s of the fleet was "missing" that may explain why the Emperor thought that he needed deathstars, and why a rag tag rebel fleet of mostly century plus year old ships flown by inbred farmboys stood a chance against an actual military.

The Aftermath trilogy suggests that Palpatine had a contingency plan part of which involved the remaining imperials going to the unknown regions. As Heir to the Empire is no longer relevant, Thrawn’s story currently ends with him and Ezra Bridger being taken somewhere (I believe also the unknown regions) by a bunch of space whales at the end of Star Wars Rebels.

 

[Spot261]

Heir to the Empire trilogy novels.

Thrawn took 3/4s of the Emperial fleet out into unknown space for "reasons" a few years before New Hope.

If 3/4s of the fleet was "missing" that may explain why the Emperor thought that he needed deathstars, and why a rag tag rebel fleet of mostly century plus year old ships flown by inbred farmboys stood a chance against an actual military.

Those novels aren't set until five years after ROTJ and have Thrawn fighting the New Republic, often in proxy wars involving smugglers.

Thrawn as a novel charted his rise through the Empire and had him operating in the outer rim (not to mention investigating not only the early seeds of the Rebel Alliance and the super secret Death Star project (which he was kept out of the loop on).

Not sure where this 3/4 of the fleet bit came from?

 

[Crazyewok]

Heir to the Empire trilogy novels.

Thrawn took 3/4s of the Emperial fleet out into unknown space for "reasons" a few years before New Hope.

If 3/4s of the fleet was "missing" that may explain why the Emperor thought that he needed deathstars, and why a rag tag rebel fleet of mostly century plus year old ships flown by inbred farmboys stood a chance against an actual military.

The empire in old cannon and now in new cannon points out the empire had 25,000 Imperial star destroyers plus likely hundreds of thousands of support ships.

Seems like a lot but the empire spanned a third of the galaxy. And George Lucas said the starwars galaxy was similar in size to our own.
That is a LOT of territory, Immense even for 25,000 ISD to patrol. Even if only a fraction of those stars have habitual worlds, that still likely hundreds of thousands of worlds and protectorates. And the uninhabitable star systems can hide pirates and rebels.

On top of that the Empire by it definition has to control that territory meaning the imperial fleet will be dispersed.

The rebels by contrast hold no official territory. That means they can bring there few hundred ships together for a precision strike on a weak imperial target then disperse without worrying about leaving others areas undefended.

The empire however if it brought ships together in a fleet would have to leave other areas undefended.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

If they had Rey waking up, I guarantee her it would have been done much differently then they did with Finn waking up (like a pratfalling comedian)