Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

[Leto_II]

That upcoming new Spock/Number One Short Treks episode (Ensign Spock coming aboard the Enterprise for the very first time) sure looks like it’s about to canonically do away with a few literary tales from over the decades (D.C. Fontana’s Vulcan’s Glory, “Flesh of My Flesh” from Early Voyages, etc.):

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[Yistaan]

That upcoming new Spock/Number One Short Treks episode (Ensign Spock coming aboard the Enterprise for the very first time) sure looks like it’s about to canonically do away with a few literary tales from over the decades (D.C. Fontana’s Vulcan’s Glory, “Flesh of My Flesh” from Early Voyages, etc.):

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"Flesh of my Flesh" from Early Voyages is already wiped out. They outright say Spock is the first Vulcan in Starfleet, something that's been proven untrue with Terral from Discovery.

 

[Markonian]

It’s hard to reconcile with existing canon as well, thanks to the uniforms.

1) We could assume that both the Enterprise and the uniforms in 2254 and before looked exactly like in “The Cage.”
2) Burnham/Saru called Pike’s uniform “the new one” in season 2.

Suddenly we have the story of Spock coming aboard the 2255/56-refit of the Enterprise and “the new uniform” but back in 2252-54.

 

[Markonian]

"Flesh of my Flesh" from Early Voyages is already wiped out. They outright say Spock is the first Vulcan in Starfleet, something that's been proven untrue with Terral from Discovery.

Actually it was proven untrue by the Vulcan-piloted USS Intrepid in TOS. They wouldn’t give a ship of the line to civvies.

 

[Christopher]

Vulcan's Glory was always a tricky one to reconcile with canon. Spock may not have been the first Vulcan in Starfleet, but he was clearly the only one on the Enterprise, so VG's portrayal of a ship with dozens of Vulcans in its crew was always rather strange, never mind how emotional they were. Despite being by Fontana, it never felt to me like it really fit the universe.

It’s hard to reconcile with existing canon as well, thanks to the uniforms.

Ahh, that's just artistic interpretation. It's no more a problem for reconciliation than Kirstie Alley being replaced with Robin Curtis. It's weird to me that people are able to accept such changes in actors (or in transporter and warp effects) but not in costume, ship, or set designs.

 

[Yistaan]

Actually it was proven untrue by the Vulcan-piloted USS Intrepid in TOS. They wouldn’t give a ship of the line to civvies.

Hmm, hard to say. Maybe the Intrepid was full of Vulcans who immediately signed up for Starfleet after Spock?

No wonder Sarek was so mad when Spock joined Starfleet. All those young Vulcans who bullied Spock but secretly envied him and tried to emulate him hurriedly enlisted after Spock did, only to get killed as redshirts by cloud creatures, space amoebas, Klingons, and who knows what else.

It’s hard to reconcile with existing canon as well, thanks to the uniforms.

1) We could assume that both the Enterprise and the uniforms in 2254 and before looked exactly like in “The Cage.”
2) Burnham/Saru called Pike’s uniform “the new one” in season 2.

Suddenly we have the story of Spock coming aboard the 2255/56-refit of the Enterprise and “the new uniform” but back in 2252-54.

You think the production team would notice something like this. I guess they'll just have to dub Anson Mount's line as "old" uniform in the blu-ray release of Disco season 2, or something.

Considering it's a Short Trek not likely watched by the mainstream, they should have just had Ethan and Rebecca wear the Cage TOS uniforms and filmed it on a TOS replica bridge set.

Bring in Jonathan Frakes and hurriedly film a new scene where he says "End program" at the end of the Spock/Number One Short Trek and have him say, "The holodeck got a few cosmetic details wrong but this historical holoprogram is mostly correct."

 

[Christopher]

I've never been able to figure out where the fan myth of Spock as the first Vulcan in Starfleet originated. There was never any such assertion in canon, and The Making of Star Trek (the source of most of the apocrypha that went unquestioned by fans for decades, like Kirk being the youngest captain or the Klingons and Romulans having an alliance) only said that Spock was the only Vulcan on the Enterprise.

 

[JoeZhang]

Hum... I wonder how far back we could track this claim?

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I've never been able to figure out where the fan myth of Spock as the first Vulcan in Starfleet originated. There was never any such assertion in canon, and The Making of Star Trek (the source of most of the apocrypha that went unquestioned by fans for decades, like Kirk being the youngest captain or the Klingons and Romulans having an alliance) only said that Spock was the only Vulcan on the Enterprise.

And like you pointed out, there was the reference to the Intrepid as a ship with an all-Vulcan crew, a ship that was only given with a name in humanity’s language, and no indication that it wasn’t a Starfleet ship. I know that a lot of these things took root well before Memory Alpha, or even the prevalence of home video, maybe even reruns, but that was actually a plot point in that episode, that the deaths of so many Vulcans was something that Spock felt.

 

[Yistaan]

And like you pointed out, there was the reference to the Intrepid as a ship with an all-Vulcan crew, a ship that was only given with a name in humanity’s language, and no indication that it wasn’t a Starfleet ship. I know that a lot of these things took root well before Memory Alpha, or even the prevalence of home video, maybe even reruns, but that was actually a plot point in that episode, that the deaths of so many Vulcans was something that Spock felt.

Except that still doesn't mean Spock wasn't the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Spock was canonically 38 at the time of the Intrepid's destruction.

The captain of the Intrepid could have been 37, enrolled one year after Spock, and all the Vulcans on it enlisted after Spock as well. Strange sure, but not impossible.

Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet was only disproven conclusively with Discovery's Terral and the fact that the Intrepid was all Vulcan already in Discovery.

Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet is still listed on the official website: https://www.startrek.com/database_article/spock despite Discovery disproving it.

 

[Tuskin38]

Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet is still listed on the official website:

That's on the fault of the website writers falling for the urban myth.

It's just not true. There's no onscreen dialogue, or any comments from people who worked on the shows that say Spock was first.

 

[The Wormhole]

Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet was only disproven conclusively with Discovery's Terral and the fact that the Intrepid was all Vulcan already in Discovery.

The Intrepid was not mentioned in Disco, unless you mean the novels.

Regardless, the idea of Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet was already disproven conclusively in Enterprise's final season when T'Pol became a Starfleet officer.

 

[Tuskin38]

Is there anything Discovery can contradict by going to the 32nd century?

 

[Yistaan]

The Intrepid was not mentioned in Disco, unless you mean the novels.

Regardless, the idea of Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet was already disproven conclusively in Enterprise's final season when T'Pol became a Starfleet officer.

Federation Starfleet, which I don't think T'Pol was canonically a part of?

Yes, someone mentions to Burnham that she could join an all Vulcan crew to feel at home, like Intrepid, I believe.

EDIT: Never mind, you're right, I think it was in a novel Burnham was suggested to join Intrepid... Terral's age should still disprove the first Vulcan Spock myth, unless they're going to announce he was really 27 or something in Discovery and the youngest admiral...

 

[Tuskin38]

Terral's age should still disprove the first Vulcan Spock myth,

Not being mentioned in dialogue anywhere should disprove the myth.

 

[Christopher]

Except that still doesn't mean Spock wasn't the first Vulcan in Starfleet.

That's not the way the burden of proof goes, though, because there is absolutely nothing in actual Trek canon that even suggests he was the first. It's a totally apocryphal fan notion. It doesn't have to be disproven; it's the thing that needs to be proven, because it is an assertion made without evidence.

Is there anything Discovery can contradict by going to the 32nd century?

All sorts of things. They could show a Tzenkethi onscreen and totally contradict the novels' depiction of them. They could say that all Breen have always been a single species. It's not just a question of events current to the story, it's a question of the worldbuilding and history that gets filled in by the story. Remember, TNG contradicted the '80s TOS novel continuity in a lot of ways despite being set a century later.

 

[Tuskin38]

All sorts of things. They could show a Tzenkethi onscreen and totally contradict the novels' depiction of them. They could say that all Breen have always been a single species. It's not just a question of events current to the story, it's a question of the worldbuilding and history that gets filled in by the story. Remember, TNG contradicted the '80s TOS novel continuity in a lot of ways despite being set a century later.

Oh good point, I was limiting my line of thought to anything that might have taken place after the 32nd century.

I didn't think of them using elements from the previous centuries.

 

[Mysterion]

Regardless, the idea of Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet was already disproven conclusively in Enterprise's final season when T'Pol became a Starfleet officer.

Well, that and the fact that Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet had never been established onscreen in the timespan between TOS premiering and the series Enterprise first airing. There was nothing there for ENT to have been retconned with T'Pol being admitted to Starfleet.

 

[Yistaan]

Not being mentioned in dialogue anywhere should disprove the myth.

Well I suppose Terral could just be an old looking 27 year old Admiral (there must be some major story behind his rapid promotion) to maintain that Spock is still the first Vulcan in Starfleet...

Well, that and the fact that Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet had never been established onscreen in the timespan between TOS premiering and the series Enterprise first airing. There was nothing there for ENT to have been retconned with T'Pol being admitted to Starfleet.

I don't think T'Pol is relevant, we're talking about Federation Starfleet.

Ages in Star Trek have always been kind of wonky. Pike is now 52 in the Cage (unless his line of being Georgiou's classmate was a sleight of hand trick to discern her Mirror identity), Picard will be in his 90s in his upcoming show, and Janeway was 27 years old at the start of Voyager (even Memory Alpha is ignoring that onscreen Janeway birth year as an error).

 

[Enterprise1701]

Is there anything Discovery can contradict by going to the 32nd century?

Here is a different sort of example which will probably not appear onscreen, but who knows what the Discovery showrunners have in mind?

Myriad Universe - Places of Exile depicts fluidic space as a multiversal singularity. The entire story hinges on no parallel timelines being possible for the Groundskeepers' home realm. IMO there is not a chance that screen canon will ever pick up that idea because, due respect to Christopher the author, it is too deep-cut physics for the average TV producer and average audience member to comprehend. Which is probably why Star Trek Online did nothing of the sort when depicting Species 8472.