Starfleet Command

[Arpy]

I just finished watching “Conspiracy” (great episode — again) and am wondering about the power structure at the top. Is there a standing triumvirate that votes on actions?

Admiral Savar (the Vulcan) sat in the middle and seemed to be in charge, but Admiral Aaron (on the left) was a pip higher rank than him and two pips higher than Admiral Quinn (on the right).

 

[gakelly]

Actually it seems like there was no one at Starfleet command when Picard beamed down.

 

[Qonundrum]

The episode's taut and claustrophobic feel (IMHO) makes up for these nitpicks rather well, though TNG season 1 didn't feel very formal or consistent with the handling of these sorts of things. TOS, as I recall and maybe there was an episode there, had the shirt piping and other rank insignia consistent - I'd have to see the images of the pips, though would Aaron be a Fleet Admiral? Or might Savar be a Vice Admiral but was given command of this visit by Picard and Riker? Might Starfleet have (here we go) multiple sub-categories within an Admiral ranking layout? (Hence Vice Admiral, Rear Admiral, Vice Vice Admiral (which would not be a good rank for Barclay only because the moment he makes it any higher his stuttering will confuse people into thinking he's still a Vi Vice Vice Admiral and that's a step down, whoops))

 

[Qonundrum]

Actually it seems like there was no one at Starfleet command when Picard beamed down.

Picard does eventually ask the Admiral why the corridors were so vacant. More amazing, Picard would be the one person not to believe the "Oh it's a quiet night and everyone's in their cabins listening to Barry White and making sweet sweet love", not with shift rotations to encompass a full 23.90% 23:56:4.09 hour diurnal rotation*.

* I had to look it up, for once I felt a need to be both pedantic and fastidious. Or at least pedantic.

 

[Arpy]

Picard et al didn’t find the three admirals unusual but the lack of activity in the main corridor. I like the Roman-like setup of them. They used to have two consuls who ran the Republic (under the senate) so that no one individual would have too much power — too much like a barbarian king, which the Romans abhorred.

 

[Prax]

well, the Federation has one president. I don't think they were trying to make a statememt about Starfleet's command structure, but who knows.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Nothing was ever stated that the three Admirals were in charge at HQ, but together they would have enough clout to clear the way for the parasites to infiltrate Starfleet.

 

[Nakita Akita]

I just finished watching “Conspiracy” (great episode — again) and am wondering about the power structure at the top. Is there a standing triumvirate that votes on actions?

Admiral Savar (the Vulcan) sat in the middle and seemed to be in charge, but Admiral Aaron (on the left) was a pip higher rank than him and two pips higher than Admiral Quinn (on the right).

I haven't watched the episode in a while, but it seems that they were sitting down to have a meal, not a military advance into enemy territory. I can't imagine what possibly importance could be derived from trying to determine tank or level of power from people sitting down to a meal.

That aside,
It could be possible that a higher ranking bug took over a lower ranking humanoid.
Availability and timing etc. which lends further to the level of importance or lack of as to what rank indicator is on the 'possessed' individual's uniform.

 

[Timo]

It's not as if Picard was buying into anything these folks were telling him. The HQ was Picard's established enemy from the moment he chose to believe Keel and sail to Earth, and he went there to confront that enemy. At most, he suspected Quinn might still be an ally - but since Quinn was apparently keeping secrets from the other two Admirals, it was pretty much certain that the two were hostile and, since they were pretending not to be hostile, deceitful to boot. "The place is a bit quiet because it's Hide In Your Room Night" is something Picard would merely nod and smile at, because he'd recognize a lie from the fact that Aaron's or Savar's lips were moving.

Remarkably, Savar feels the need to introduce himself and Aaron to Picard, suggesting these folks are relatively low-ranking nobodies rather than Picard's well-known top bosses. Which works well enough if we assume the pipless flag rank is the lowest (either Rear Admiral or, if we assume future Starfleet customs call for addressing a Commodore as Admiral, then that rank), making Savar a Vice Admiral and Aaron an Admiral at most, but allowing them to be Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral, too.

That Savar speaks for the trio both in the viewscreen introduction and during the dinner does suggest the bug within was the boss. Might have been Savar was possessed by a Bug Grand Admiral. Might be Savar was a Bug Corporal, and the bugs placed relatively little emphasis on the occupation of SF HQ and the capturing and interrogation/coopting/elimination of busybodies like Picard - the real action might have been elsewhere at the time. After all, if SF HQ was being kept empty, it couldn't have much role in misleading Starfleet, either - it would need to be busy to accomplish that!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

What about the mother bug in poor, Lt. Cmdr. Dexter Remmick? Wasn't he/it really in charge of the bug invasion?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Remarkably, Savar feels the need to introduce himself and Aaron to Picard, suggesting these folks are relatively low-ranking nobodies rather than Picard's well-known top bosses. Which works well enough if we assume the pipless flag rank is the lowest (either Rear Admiral or, if we assume future Starfleet customs call for addressing a Commodore as Admiral, then that rank), making Savar a Vice Admiral and Aaron an Admiral at most, but allowing them to be Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral, too.

I sometimes wonder if Quinn's "pipless" flag rank was an error, as at one point he offers Picard the post as Head of Starfleet Academy, variously known as the commandant or superintendent on other occassions, which is usually a three pip Vice Admiral's billet - which outranks Quinn's "pipless" by two to three grades. Alternatively, it might be protocol for anyone above the rank of Captain assigned to Headquarters (the "Admiralty") to be referred as "Admiral" even they aren't a full flag officer.

 

[Arpy]

Regardless the ranks of the bugs inside, I think the exterior facade had to appear legitimate for the rest of Starfleet not to notice what was going on. Picard didn’t trust the admirals but they played it as though things were normal.

The additional pips were strange. When we first met Quinn, the admiral patch showed, what, six pips framed in gold? Okay — this denotes an admiral. But the additional pips on Savar and Aaron seemed unnecessary as well as bewildering. Just make them all six-pip admirals. If we like, lesser admirals could be in five-pip gold frames, four-pip frames, three, etc.

I do think the mother bug was in charge, but that could be wrong. Maybe she was just the telepathic circuit board. But more likely she was the queen in charge, and it was ingenious to be hidden in Remmick.

 

[Prax]

I sometimes wonder if Quinn's "pipless" flag rank was an error, as at one point he offers Picard the post as Head of Starfleet Academy, variously known as the commandant or superintendent on other occassions, which is usually a three pip Vice Admiral's billet - which outranks Quinn's "pipless" by two to three grades. Alternatively, it might be protocol for anyone above the rank of Captain assigned to Headquarters (the "Admiralty") to be referred as "Admiral" even they aren't a full flag officer.

Quinn is referred to as "a senior Admiral." He does wear a little stripe with 7 pips, or markings in it. They changed the Admiral uniform a few times, so we can assume if we saw quinn in a newer one, it would have two bars with 3 or 4 pips.

 

[Timo]

Might of course be that the pips were not part of the Starfleet early 2360s rank scheme at all, but merely something the bugs added to their collars because of a misunderstanding of how the rank scheme worked; because their unwilling hosts were desperately trying to send a message and managed this much; or because the bugs felt it would be fun to play mind games with victims like Picard, such as wearing blatantly incorrect uniforms, telling outrageous lies, or eating Klingon food.

Quinn was able to offer a top posting to Picard, yes - but he might have been a mere messenger, rather than the hierarchical holder of those particular keys.

Then again, having Academy command be a high-ranking position would not be our first preference, exactly because it was being offered to the lowly Captain Picard. Possibly Picard would have been an exception, a bit like the celebrated Rear Admiral Kirk got positions that sounded impressive enough (Chief of Fleet Ops explicitly in TMP, perhaps Academy Commandant in ST2:TWoK).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I sometimes wonder if Quinn's "pipless" flag rank was an error, as at one point he offers Picard the post as Head of Starfleet Academy, variously known as the commandant or superintendent on other occassions, which is usually a three pip Vice Admiral's billet - which outranks Quinn's "pipless" by two to three grades. Alternatively, it might be protocol for anyone above the rank of Captain assigned to Headquarters (the "Admiralty") to be referred as "Admiral" even they aren't a full flag officer.

Correcting myself here. The commandant/superintendent was a two-pip not three-pip posting on the two occassions we've seen it.

The additional pips were strange. When we first met Quinn, the admiral patch showed, what, six pips framed in gold? Okay — this denotes an admiral. But the additional pips on Savar and Aaron seemed unnecessary as well as bewildering. Just make them all six-pip admirals. If we like, lesser admirals could be in five-pip gold frames, four-pip frames, three, etc.

The general assumption is that the "admiral patch" is purely equivalent to the "broad stripe" on modern RN/US naval uniforms (that is to say, it designates an "officer of flag rank" or "flag officer", the standard pips designate grade - Aaron would have two boxed pips on his collar on the standard TNG system, Savar a single boxed pip and Quinn allegedly none).

Quinn was able to offer a top posting to Picard, yes - but he might have been a mere messenger, rather than the hierarchical holder of those particular keys.

THat's certainly possible.

Then again, having Academy command be a high-ranking position would not be our first preference, exactly because it was being offered to the lowly Captain Picard. Possibly Picard would have been an exception, a bit like the celebrated Rear Admiral Kirk got positions that sounded impressive enough (Chief of Fleet Ops explicitly in TMP, perhaps Academy Commandant in ST2:TWoK).

Given that the Superintendent of the USNA is a Vice Admiral, there's a certain logic to the SA Commandant holding similar rank. After all, it's not like Picard didn't have more than enough "time in rank" for the post, it's just he prefered a field command, which is a captain's billet in peacetime.

 

[Arpy]

The general assumption is that the "admiral patch" is purely equivalent to the "broad stripe" on modern RN/US naval uniforms (that is to say, it designates an "officer of flag rank" or "flag officer", the standard pips designate grade - Aaron would have two boxed pips on his collar on the standard TNG system, Savar a single boxed pip and Quinn allegedly none).

It seems pretty silly to me that they’d come up with a way to denote a flag officer but not actually give that officer any identification as to which rank they held. For one thing, isn’t that what the different uniform overall denotes? I think the patch with the pips within are the rank, as they did later.

Quinn was identified as a senior admiral, had broad investigative and appointive powers, and presented as part of a triumvirate in charge of Starfleet Command. It seems wrong to jump through hoops to try and rework that.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It seems pretty silly to me that they’d come up with a way to denote a flag officer but not actually give that officer any identification as to which rank they held. For one thing, isn’t that what the different uniform overall denotes? I think the patch with the pips within are the rank, as they did later.

Yes, and in US naval services the "flag officer uniform only" rank would be Rear Admiral, Lower Half, also known as "Flotilla Admiral" or "Under Admiral". As the smallest known unit of Starfleet forces is either the Wing or the Taskforce/Battle Group, Wing Admiral or Group Admiral seems the most likely option here if Quinn is supposed to be the lowest rank of admiral in the modern US-style, otherwise the uniform should be that of a Commodore as in TOS, historical precedence and modern practice in the Commonweath and much of the non-Anglosphere.

Quinn was identified as a senior admiral, had broad investigative and appointive powers, and presented as part of a triumvirate in charge of Starfleet Command. It seems wrong to jump through hoops to try and rework that.

True.

I wonder if JP Hanson from BoBW (a three-star VADM) might have been intended to be Quinn at one point. While Picard's familiarity with Hanson is hardly a surprise, Riker's dialogue indicates a level of familiarity that is at odd's with it being his first appearance -

PICARD: Number One, why don't you show the Commander to her quarters?
RIKER: It's our poker night, Admiral. There's always an open seat for you.
HANSON: Another time, Commander. Your captain and I have a lot to cover. But rumour has it Commander Shelby's played a hand or two.

- but would potentially fit with it being Quinn.

Just a thought?

 

[gakelly]

Is there someone that is the ultimate authority? Maybe like a commander in chief...the 24th century version of Donald Trump?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Is there someone that is the ultimate authority? Maybe like a commander in chief...the 24th century version of Donald Trump?

The President of the Federation is also the Commander in Chief of Starfleet.

 

[Prax]

occasionally held by a reluctant sally man