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Spoilers Game of Thrones: The Final Season

I didn't expect the episode to go down the way it did. I expected Dany to attack King's Landing with Drogon only because Cersei forced her hand and perhaps the brutality of seeing the attack force Jon and Tyrion to reject her as queen. The fact that the entire city surrendered and she went about a murderous rampage anyway... I actually said WTF as she began roasting the civilians. Cleganebowl was a satisfying end to Sandor's and Gregor's long standing fued. I'm glad Arya didn't kill Cersei. Loved the scene between Tyrion and Jaime. Jaime's and Cersei's final moments were good. I really wish Euron would have been a snack for Drogon, but at least that prick is dead. All-in-all, I really enjoyed E5.

I would say the only thing I didn't like was how easily the Iron fleet was destroyed. Last season and this season Euron seemed to come out of nowhere and destroy Dany's fleet or kill a dragon. In this episode, they're essentially impotent. None of the ships were firing the scorpion bolts except Euron's, despite having as much time now as they had last week to target and kill Rhaegar. I think that it might have worked better if Rhaegar was killed this episode and one dragon acts as a distraction and target for the ships while Dany attacks them on Drogon from a different angle.
 
Yeh they should of saved the 2 Dragons for this episode and losing 1 during the battle added to the fuel that ignited Dany's crazy blood lust in this episode,
 
Yeh they should of saved the 2 Dragons for this episode and losing 1 during the battle added to the fuel that ignited Dany's crazy blood lust in this episode,

Who would be riding the second dragon though? The dragons can't really be used as weapons without a rider. Which means Jon. I suppose Jon could ride, and then somehow survive the crash-landing as he did in the third episode.
 
Who would be riding the second dragon though? The dragons can't really be used as weapons without a rider. Which means Jon. I suppose Jon could ride, and then somehow survive the crash-landing as he did in the third episode.
Dany was using all three dragons as weapons during the battle of Mereen but Viscerion and Rhaegal didn't have riders.
 
HUH???
What's that got to do with anything? I'm taking about the battle in this episode and Dani's rampage.
I just meant in general as a comparison. It ended about as bad as this ep. Didn't like how it was handled in GOT, thought it was as bad as how the XF turned out. Thought Dani went off the deep end far sooner than I thought she would.
 
So, in good news, the actor who played Barristan Selmy in the series (Ian McElhinney, who is a big GRRM fan) made a claim last month that GRRM has actually finished the series, but he had some sort of deal with D&D that he wouldn't publish the last two books until Game of Thrones is completed.

"I don't know if you know more than me about this, but what I've been told is that George has already written books six and seven," McElhinney said. "And as far as he's concerned, there only are seven books. But he struck an agreement with David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss], the showrunners of the series, that he would not publish the final two books until the series has completed. So all goes well, in another month or two, we might get books six and seven, and I'm intrigued to know how Barristan, for instance, ends up going through those final two books."
 
Really?!? That's what this has been about this whole time? Interesting! I wonder who they will get to read the audio versions now that Roy Dotrice has passed.
 
Another interesting thing about our perception of Dany.

Imagine her doing all the things she did before to literally anybody but slavers.

“Slavery” was the magic word to trigger us to tolerate cruelty and mass murder. Then we just assumed the cruelty was reserved for slavers without thinking about it.
 
In a way I see that as the writers commenting on us and the way we view political figures. We were just as drawn in as Tyrion and Jon. But all the evidence is right there in retrospect.
Agreed. This is a central warning of the series! Don't naively assume the best of people! When some one shows their true self, believe them!

I think the huge mind fuck of how we've followed Dany over the years of the series without realizing until the end that she is the major antagonist of the series is an amazing accomplishment and a unique feature of Game of Thrones. I'd agree that some of the journey was short cut by truncated seasons. It could've even have had more resonance, but alas it is what it is.
 
Another interesting thing about our perception of Dany.

Imagine her doing all the things she did before to literally anybody but slavers.

“Slavery” was the magic word to trigger us to tolerate cruelty and mass murder. Then we just assumed the cruelty was reserved for slavers without thinking about it.
Agreed. The foil makes all the difference in terms of appearance.
 
Who would be riding the second dragon though? The dragons can't really be used as weapons without a rider. Which means Jon. I suppose Jon could ride, and then somehow survive the crash-landing as he did in the third episode.

Or not, and he dies too. This would actually give a sad and nasty but... acceptable... reason for Daeny to snap and goes nuclear. Slaughter of Iron Fleet, Golden Company, and scorpions goes as it did, Lannister soldiers lay down their arms, and the bells ring, city appears to be surrendering. At the last minute, one particularly nasty/bold Lannister soldier at a scorpion that was missed takes aim at Rhaegal, knocking him out of the sky as he's circling very low with Jon on top. Rhaegal tumbles, Jon is crashed, and that's when Daeny burns it all. It's still nasty, tragic, and I'd still be very critical, but at least there's some character logic.
 
I think I found who Dany was getting advice from this episode:
QZ2RBAA.gif

:p
 
My thoughts on all this.....apologies for the length. It sort of got away from me. :bolian:
If you get all the way to the end, you'll get an internet high five from me. If not, well I don't blame you. :lol:

Jaime was an addict, Cersei the drug. Addiction can lead people to make horrible choices, in Jaime's case he was willing to kill a kid and did kill his cousin. Some addicts see their problem and fight their way to being clean with a chance at happiness within their reach, only to succumb again to their addiction as it leads them to their death. The non-addicts around them wondering how they could throw away a chance at happiness for a drug or any other addiction. That was Jaime. He didn't get the Hollywood ending on that front.

However him surviving two stab wounds like that long enough to go up however many flights of stairs, search however many rooms, then go back down all those stairs and have more "strength" than her was preposterous and took me out of the show a bit. Initially I figured that Cersei would come across his dead body after she fled from Cleganebowl, seeing one more foundation of her world gone for good.

Cersei? Pride goeth before a fall. There is no Hollywood bad guy end for her. She doesn't get kicked off the top of the Red Keep, or burned / eaten by a dragon as she screams defiantly "I'M the queen!" or whatever tripe we usually see in a blockbuster. No, she literally went from the top of the world to the bottom in an instance. The Red Keep, her safe haven / womb / world literally collapses in on her killing her, the world above neither knowing or caring that she died.

Arya? A "scared girl" again? Not really. Like many characters, they got confident and comfortable being in a certain environment, were skilled in navigating that environment and now find themselves in a place where that environment has been upturned. Arya's skills allowed her to be a badass in the shadows against the unsuspecting. She's in a city that's collapsing around her, where she could be killed by a falling wall or dragon flame, where she's also seeing thousands of innocent people dying. She has methodically killed people "who had it coming", now she's seeing an overabundance of people who didn't "have it coming" die right before her eyes and all her skills are utterly useless on this type of playing field, aside from barely keeping her alive. Stealth and shadows aren't much good when the things that provide stealth and shadows are there one second and gone the next.

Despite that, she'll most likely attempt to kill Dany. I'm not certain she'll succeed, primarily because fans think she will and one of this stories gimmicks is "that thing you think we're going to do? Yeah.....we're gonna do the opposite of that". Everyone thinks Arya's gonna do the deed because she's uber-bad ass, but I don't think she'll succeed. Because too many people expect it and because I don't think they'll giver her the two big kills of the series. I always figured she'd survive and be assassin for House Stark, or that she'd go on to live for years, with the Faceless Men taking her out down the road. But, we'll see.

Jon? He got a wake up call for sure, on several levels. So far he's been in combat with enemies where he and his side have been the underdog fighting against other warriors on a battlefield. Now he see's that this army that he thought of as "noble" and "honorable" can be every bit the vicious wolf in the hen house against defenseless civilians as any one else. Especially Dany. Years ago I thought this would be the tale of how two leaders came together and defeated a great enemy. Now I'm thinking it's all but certain that it's the tale of the end of the Targaryens. The end of the story that began with Aegon the Conqueror 300 years ago. If there's a follow up to that recent Targaryen history book, this is the last story in it. Jon's fate could go several ways, with death or just walking away being the two obvious.

IIRC, Martin once said something about good guys being too noble to live in a brutal world (see Ned Stark) and so we've been conditioned to think Jon's going to die because of his "nobility". And he might. Or in the end, he might learn the lesson that Ned didn't. I tended to think Jon would die, with the wildlings up North mythologizing him and his return to save the world in it's direst hour, maybe the rest of Westeros as well... But with Dany burning King's Landing.....yeah, hatred of the Targaryen name would be at an all time high, and that includes Jon who was part of the invasion.

Dany? Yeah, I was shocked. At first I thought she was heading for the Red Keep, then thought she was burning people in the keep. When they showed that she was still far away and burning Kings Landing...that's when the horror of what she was doing hit. And I'm not surprised. Other's here have perfectly explained the events leading to this moment, so I won't repeat them here. For myself, IIRC, she was once shown a vision of a dragon shadow over Kings Landing, as well as a ruined throne room with what appeared to be snow falling in through gaping holes. Snow? Or ash? Maybe both.

As for the destruction of Kings Landing....yeah, this is her burning the Tarley's in front of the troops writ large. Also, she already had disdain for the civilians as she pointed out that the slaves in Essos rose up and overthrew their masters. Here, the slaves may not wear chains, but they're still the playthings of those of noble blood....and they're not doing anything about it for themselves. They're not rising up and fighting for freedom, they just look down and try not to get killed in the best of times, and march off to be cannon fodder for pointless wars for the nobles. It seems like she's come to the decision that if they're more submissive cowards than a people who will rise up against unjust leaders, especially when given a chance, then she'll give them a reason to be submissive with a lesson that will resound through the ages.

The other aspect of the destruction of Kings Landing, and I don't know if it's something she was thinking about, is that it now ties her followers to her in a way they really can't come back from. Jon vouched for her, put his trust in her, bent the knee to her, was in love with her. All of that information is as every bit devastating to him as his heritage being made public is to her. His reputation is in the shitter, and he's tied to her in this attack no matter how much it repulsed him. He was one of her leaders and the public will not forget that.

Also, while she was in Mereen (the city with the pyramid) I kept thinking that she doesn't really need to go to Westeros. She's queen of a great and ancient city, more than one actually. I remember back then thinking "What if we're seeing the origin story of the "evil" Queen?" Many villains are the heroes in their own story.

Aside from the "do the opposite" thing, the other obvious thing about this story is that it's like the fantasy story if we followed the characters for seven years before the story. Like if we followed the LotR characters for years before the book starts. We know the characters by the time the "story" starts. Who they are, what they want, why they do what they do. In some cases we root for two different groups and when they come together in conflict, we realize we're rooting for both sides to win because we've come to like both characters. Brienne fighting the Hound comes to mind.

We also don't want to believe, because we've been shown the characters backstories, that maybe they're really not who we thought they were, even if the hints were there the whole time. Dany was shown visions of a ruined throne room a long time ago with the implication that it would be her doing the destructing. We've seen how she treats her enemies, and that was in an environment that she was able bend to her will and make a place that she was comfortable with. Remember Arya running through a crumbling city in horror as it crumbled all around her, with the very real possibility of dying right then and there going through her mind? That's what Dany seems to be going through on a mental level as she's in an alien land, has lost her most devoted friends, and is facing betrayal and failure by her advisors and the one man she thought would never betray her.

Taking all of that into consideration, no, I'm not surprised this is where we ended up. She's not a Disney princess, doesn't get the Hollywood ending and was always the big bad of the show. I could easily see all of them as villains in the future tales told by the people of Westeros 'ala the play we saw about Joffery in Essos. Dragon Queen, lecherous dwarf advisor, her most trusted advisors were a disgraced knight, a washed up knight, the architect of much pain and suffering (all for the good of the realm of course), her brutal slave army led by a man called Grayworm, her brutal Dothraki army, her mercenary army, and her dragons. Who was able to seduce the leader of the Dothraki, as well as the mercenary leader, even the great hero of the North.

I'm sure the same could be said about the Starks, and it will really depend on who's left alive to write the history.

As for Tyrion.....Well, he's been largely useless over the last couple of seasons. Hasn't really delivered any wins for Dany, and when he's counseled restraint, it hasn't really seemed to work much for Dany. He found someone he could believe in, but it turns out she may be no different from anyone else before her. Right now he's been able to stave off her fury, sometimes by reminding her that he's fully behind that "better world" vision that sold him on her. But even that won't sway her anymore. If she dies, and it's by his hand, I hope we don't have a scene where, dying, she tell's him "I just wanted a better world" followed by a pause and a sad Tyrion saying "So did I".

I do wonder if she'll pursue her obsession with throne to the bitter end, or if she just writes Westeros off as being unworthy of her rule and returns to Essos where she's (as far as we know) still entrenched in power. That would be the "you think she's going to live and rule, or die by obsession, so we're gonna do the opposite of both of those" coming into play and would be the non-Hollywood ending. The "Fuck it, you can have this shithole, I'm out!" ending.

Sansa? Well just as Arya took out the Night King, I could see Sansa taking out the Dragon Queen. By machinations not by her hand. We don't know what she's been doing since the troops left Winterfell, and I'm sure the destruction of King's Landing will have her working on some kind of back up plan, because of her own interactions with Dany and Stark family history. I have a sinking feeling that Dany may make an example out of Winterfell too, solidly answering Sansa's question of "What about the North?"


Gonna leave it there, and apologies again for the length.
 
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I read through it all because I found your insight to be quite on-the-spot for most things, particularly with the rise of Dany's seemingly inherited instability and the wanton carnage it produced. Last season I remember she made a big deal about "breaking the wheel", with the cycle of Westerosi rulers cycling through all the great houses and thinking, "how is she going to do that, exactly". I think she was intent on cooking the whole place from the beginning, albeit in a slightly more tempered way. The recent death of her advisors and two dragons probably kicked the Targaryen crazy coin over for her.

I disagree with one point, however, as is applies to Arya. I believe she is destined to clip Dany, not because it's a "Hollywood" thing to do, but they made quite a point about her taking out someone with "green eyes". As pointed out by others here, now that Cersei is gone, the only one of relative import that fits Melissandre's prophecy for Arya is Dany.
 
Whaaaa...?!

There are so many problems with this possibility. First and foremost, it's an act of bad faith from both Martin and Benioff & Weiss. Martin for deliberately frustrating his readers into thinking that he's not finishing the series (or at least "he Winds of Winter), Benioff & Weiss for their claims that they didn't have anymore material to work from this whole time, particularly for the last few seasons, and using that claim as part of their excuse for the abbreviated seasons 7 and 8.

Furthermore, I find it very hard to believe that Martin, who is notoriously slow at finishing projects, secretly finished two whole books of his opus magnum while also writing the first part of his big Fire & Blood history trilogy (clocking at 700 plus pages!) and all other projects he's been working on since A Dance with Dragons. That's on top of the fact that he's admitted publicly many times that he's had problems with figuring out where how to connect certain points of his story, least of all the infamous Meereenese knot.

Lastly, I find it extremely hard to believe that Martin's publisher would go along with such a deal.

My thoughts on all this.....apologies for the length. It sort of got away from me. :bolian:
If you get all the way to the end, you'll get an internet high five from me. If not, well I don't blame you. :lol:
Challenge accepted!

Jaime was an addict, Cersei the drug. Addiction can lead people to make horrible choices, in Jaime's case he was willing to kill a kid and did kill his cousin. Some addicts see their problem and fight their way to being clean with a chance at happiness within their reach, only to succumb again to their addiction as it leads them to their death. The non-addicts around them wondering how they could throw away a chance at happiness for a drug or any other addiction. That was Jaime. He didn't get the Hollywood ending on that front.
While I can see that as a plausible thematic angle to explain Jaime's actions, there's little on-screen evidence for it. The best I can come up with to support that thesis is the conversation between Jaime and Tyrion shortly after he was "acquitted" in Winterfell where they talked about why Jaime was fooled by Cersei. Beyond that, it's mostly been an outright tale of redemption with Brienne's storyline intertwining in and out of it, before he abruptly left and gave us his "tell, not show" speech.

However him surviving two stab wounds like that long enough to go up however many flights of stairs, search however many rooms, then go back down all those stairs and have more "strength" than her was preposterous and took me out of the show a bit. Initially I figured that Cersei would come across his dead body after she fled from Cleganebowl, seeing one more foundation of her world gone for good.
Honestly, I've watched enough shows and films to have become immune to such plot armor. I knew despite the supposed deathblow Euron struck, I knew he would live long enough to reach Cersei so they could die together. If Benioff & Weiss really wanted to be subversive, Jaime would've died right there on the shore alongside Euron.

Cersei? Pride goeth before a fall. There is no Hollywood bad guy end for her. She doesn't get kicked off the top of the Red Keep, or burned / eaten by a dragon as she screams defiantly "I'M the queen!" or whatever tripe we usually see in a blockbuster. No, she literally went from the top of the world to the bottom in an instance. The Red Keep, her safe haven / womb / world literally collapses in on her killing her, the world above neither knowing or caring that she died.
I suppose that's a good way of looking at it but it still felt very weird that the show suddenly tried to present her in a strictly positive light simply because a worse person showed up.

Arya? A "scared girl" again? Not really. Like many characters, they got confident and comfortable being in a certain environment, were skilled in navigating that environment and now find themselves in a place where that environment has been upturned. Arya's skills allowed her to be a badass in the shadows against the unsuspecting. She's in a city that's collapsing around her, where she could be killed by a falling wall or dragon flame, where she's also seeing thousands of innocent people dying. She has methodically killed people "who had it coming", now she's seeing an overabundance of people who didn't "have it coming" die right before her eyes and all her skills are utterly useless on this type of playing field, aside from barely keeping her alive. Stealth and shadows aren't much good when the things that provide stealth and shadows are there one second and gone the next.
I'm glad someone else got this. She's my favorite character alongside Tyrion and I didn't take her simply as a "frighten girl" either at Winterfall or King's Landing. In both situations, she had real and legitimate reasons to be terrified in such a manner anyone in the same situation would be.

Despite that, she'll most likely attempt to kill Dany. I'm not certain she'll succeed, primarily because fans think she will and one of this stories gimmicks is "that thing you think we're going to do? Yeah.....we're gonna do the opposite of that". Everyone thinks Arya's gonna do the deed because she's uber-bad ass, but I don't think she'll succeed. Because too many people expect it and because I don't think they'll giver her the two big kills of the series. I always figured she'd survive and be assassin for House Stark, or that she'd go on to live for years, with the Faceless Men taking her out down the road. But, we'll see.
On the flip side, a lot of people predicted she would kill the Night King since episode two of this season and we were all correct.

That said, I actually don't want her to try to kill Daenerys because of what Sandor said and how she moved from being an agent of death to an agent for life during the burning of King's Landing.

Jon? He got a wake up call for sure, on several levels. So far he's been in combat with enemies where he and his side have been the underdog fighting against other warriors on a battlefield. Now he see's that this army that he thought of as "noble" and "honorable" can be every bit the vicious wolf in the hen house against defenseless civilians as any one else. Especially Dany. Years ago I thought this would be the tale of how two leaders came together and defeated a great enemy. Now I'm thinking it's all but certain that it's the tale of the end of the Targaryens. The end of the story that began with Aegon the Conqueror 300 years ago. If there's a follow up to that recent Targaryen history book, this is the last story in it. Jon's fate could go several ways, with death or just walking away being the two obvious.

IIRC, Martin once said something about good guys being too noble to live in a brutal world (see Ned Stark) and so we've been conditioned to think Jon's going to die because of his "nobility". And he might. Or in the end, he might learn the lesson that Ned didn't. I tended to think Jon would die, with the wildlings up North mythologizing him and his return to save the world in it's direst hour, maybe the rest of Westeros as well... But with Dany burning King's Landing.....yeah, hatred of the Targaryen name would be at an all time high, and that includes Jon who was part of the invasion.
That's a good way of looking at things. Which, honestly, I need because I've always been bored by Jon. Both in the books and in the show.

Also, while she was in Mereen (the city with the pyramid) I kept thinking that she doesn't really need to go to Westeros. She's queen of a great and ancient city, more than one actually. I remember back then thinking "What if we're seeing the origin story of the "evil" Queen?" Many villains are the heroes in their own story.
I remember a lot of people said she shouldn't leave Meereen. She had a largely good thing there. The only reason why she left is because she felt that it was her destiny to take what she had always been told was her birthright. We can blame Viserys for planting those seeds so early into her life. As soon as she left with her new armies and new advisors, I knew she would head closer towards the Mad Queen path, even if I wasn't sure she would actually become the Mad Queen.

As for Tyrion.....Well, he's been largely useless over the last couple of seasons. Hasn't really delivered any wins for Dany, and when he's counseled restraint, it hasn't really seemed to work much for Dany. He found someone he could believe in, but it turns out she may be no different from anyone else before her. Right now he's been able to stave off her fury, sometimes by reminding her that he's fully behind that "better world" vision that sold him on her. But even that won't sway her anymore. If she dies, and it's by his hand, I hope we don't have a scene where, dying, she tell's him "I just wanted a better world" followed by a pause and a sad Tyrion saying "So did I".
I've been in denial about Tyrion for awhile now, saying that he was better suited for maintaining Westerosi politics than strategizing full battle plans for those from Essos (Daenerys might be Westerosi-born but she's Essosi-educated, Viserys seed planting aside). But his repeated mistakes over the last two seasons are hard to ignore. His acts of restraint were the only truly smart decisions he made and those were often ignored.

I do wonder if she'll pursue her obsession with throne to the bitter end, or if she just writes Westeros off as being unworthy of her rule and returns to Essos where she's (as far as we know) still entrenched in power. That would be the "you think she's going to live and rule, or die by obsession, so we're gonna do the opposite of both of those" coming into play and would be the non-Hollywood ending. The "Fuck it, you can have this shithole, I'm out!" ending.
Hm, interesting. I hadn't considered that possibility. Daario and the Second Sons are still in Meereen, presumably still holding the city for her so it's not like she wouldn't have a place to fall back to.

But I don't see that happening simply because those Viserys seeds are so deeply ingrained in her mind. I could see her continue her scorch earth plan as a means to finally get people to bend the knee. King's Landing might enough for most of the Seven Kingdoms, but I can see both Dorne and the North still resisting. Well, in the books anyways, but since there's only one episode left and Dorne has all been forgotten beyond one line, it'll be just the North, especially considering her already strained relationship with Daenerys.

Sansa? Well just as Arya took out the Night King, I could see Sansa taking out the Dragon Queen. By machinations not by her hand. We don't know what she's been doing since the troops left Winterfell, and I'm sure the destruction of King's Landing will have her working on some kind of back up plan, because of her own interactions with Dany and Stark family history. I have a sinking feeling that Dany may make an example out of Winterfell too, solidly answering Sansa's question of "What about the North?"
Yup, like I said. Sansa will be the last hold out. I wonder if she'll develop some means to defend Winterfell thanks to Bran. I know this is a long stretch, but we never did find out where Bran warged off to during the Battle of Winterfell, so maybe he was preparing for Daenerys' fury.

Gonna leave it there, and apologies again for the length.
No need to apologize! It's always good to see someone who spends the time to sit down and really think theses things out, even if I don't agree with you on everything.
 
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So, if Dany and Jon both die, who has a valid claim to the throne? Obviously Gendry does, but what about Tyrion? Cersi was his sister, but she was a Baratheon by marriage. I don't see how Sansa has claim to the throne, the Starks never had a claim.

I think Brans story is done, IMO. I don't think they will explain anymore about where he warged to.
 
I think Brans story is done, IMO. I don't think they will explain anymore about where he warged to.

According to basically all of the leaks, Bran is somehow elected King after Dany dies and Jon gives up the throne by rejoining the Night's Watch
 
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