Spoilers Game of Thrones: The Final Season

[crookeddy]

By whose standards are we calling people evil? I guess by in world morality, Dany is well on the good side to this point. Of all the people with a sense of entitlement to power, she is so far the best behaved.

By real world morality there isn’t much of anyone who can claim “Good”.

I don't think anyone in universe is saying that she's the worst choice. They are just saying that join is the better choice.

 

[Charles Phipps]

What you've just argued is that Dany is equally as ethical and terrible as the Masters. Not the sort of person I would want as a ruler.

In the context that killing a Nazi is the same as killing a Nazi's victim.

Or killing a plantation owner is the same as killing a slave.

Except this plantation owner just murdered a baby.

The aesop of Mereen is a dark one but a clear one: Daenerys' mercy was wasted on the evil. Mereen would have only had peace by utterly destroying the Masters.

 

[EmoBorg]

The episode 4 had an opening that featured this. Interesting isn't it.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The episode 4 had an opening that featured this. Interesting isn't it.

Does this presage a crossover with The 100 ? (Joking)

Hopefully, it's a comet (Bayeux tapestry inspired) and not a spaceship. The latter would seem like the show is borrowing from Brian Aldiss's Helliconia trilogy.

ETA: Might it indicate Drogon and her children hatched near Volantis coming to aid in the attack on King's Landing?

 

[Miss Chicken]

In the context that killing a Nazi is the same as killing a Nazi's victim.

Or killing a plantation owner is the same as killing a slave.

Except this plantation owner just murdered a baby.

The aesop of Mereen is a dark one but a clear one: Daenerys' mercy was wasted on the evil. Mereen would have only had peace by utterly destroying the Masters.

The problem is Dany made no effort to actually find out how guilty the people she crucified were. At least one of them had argued against crucifying the children.

 

[theenglish]

We never really learned what the comet from A Clash of Kings means (Season 2 in the series). Is this the sun sets in the East?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

In antiquity, comets were usually taken as harbingers of great change. Hence the inclusion of Halley's Comet (as it would be named much later) on the Bayeux Tapestry.

A full moon was shown in episode 8.3 during the dragon fight above the clouds. Did anyone pause and enlarge to see if its surface markings (maria) corresponded to our Moon? From the brief glimpse I had, it looked somewhat the same.

 

[Cyrus]

I dunno why. Might have something to do with not being racist, or not looking at people in those terms, or because I never looked at Missandei as a color, but as a person.

I never looked her as a color either. She was just a super hot woman. I am sad she is gone. Poor greyworm.

 

[USS Firefly]

And poor Ghost the way Jon treated him.

 

[DigificWriter]

As if the shit writing of Season 8 weren't bad enough in and of itself, it's started retroactively affecting my enjoyment of the series in general.

As I got to the end of my Season 5 Binge Mode podcast listening, the outrage I feel over how Season 8 has been written started to cut into my enjoyment of the discussions I was listening to.

I also can't continue to care about Jon and Dany's relationship as a "shipper" because I know that it ultimately doesn't mean anything.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Does she really want to break the wheel if her main aim is to gain the throne for herself?

I sometimes wonder that too. I don't think she is doing herself any favors by strongly insisting she is the rightful queen or is destined to rule Westeros when she talks to certain people. She doesn't quite know how to talk to people.

But then again, the only way she could come back home is with an army, otherwise she would be killed or hunted on sight. And she does genuinely seem to want to challenge the corruption, sexism and injustice of the world.

There's a lot of nonsense being tossed about in support of the preposterous Mad Queen arc. Those who agree with the producers' deeply felt conviction that Daenerys was a monster for tormenting the Masters are only consistent in thinking Daenerys did any good thing. Sorry that actually discussing this takes so much space.


As for Daenerys not being satisfied to be Khal Drogo's wife, Sansa wasn't satisfied being Tyrion's wife either. Taking the Iron Throne was not just being safe, but finding somewhere else to live than Vaes Dothrak. I'm sympathetic, though any who think Dothraki customs for wives are suitable will disagree. After Drogo died, she gave others a chance to leave, and some did.

The sack of Astapor was conducted by slaves freed after Daenerys used her dragon to murder the slavemaster. This earned the permanent hatred for her. The conquest of Yunkai, ditto. In Meereen, the crucifixion of a Master for each child crucified was stern but just, an example of why we should prefer to beg mercy than to demand justice. The show believes the whole Meereenese storyline about how awful it was to torment the Masters by freeing slaves is "The Yankee carpetbaggers and scalawags tormented the South with their mad, vicious, inhuman ideology of Reconstrutction?" Oh, yeah, after they made sure we knew some slaves wanted to stay with the masters they loved, and it was right not to execute rich people but to execute uppity ex-slaves who were taking an unjust revenge, and executing the good rich folk was murderous tyranny because they had nothing to do with the Sons of the Harpy, who were just hirelings paid by somebody else, they discreetly dispatched the Sons of the Harpy. They had after all done their work in showing how Daenerys was a wicked tyrant. This whole storyline was preposterous, no matter how sincere the producers were in believing this BS. Proffering this reactionary mythology as proof Daenerys was always evil is unacceptable to anyone who doesn't agree.

Sansa's enmity for Daenerys came first. There is no escaping that, and no excusing it. She hates Daenerys more than she hates Cersei and feared the Night King. As to Daenerys' temper, sure it's real. It is also known that Daenerys will listen to advisors, just as Sansa listened to Brienne when she wanted to kill Jaime.

Sansa had no real reason to think Daenerys is mad (except a violent prejudice in favor of the sanctity of noble life a la Tyrion.) And she knew Daenerys and Jon were in love. She hated Daenerys because she wanted an independent kingdom in the North (if not more,) one that she would be enormously influential in. She pushed Jon into attacking Bolton, she could hope to push him into much more. If she had sent the knight of the Vale to the wall, rather than forcing Jon to seek help from Daenerys, the Night King wouldn't have been able to break the wall, while the gates could be held. It is not at all clear that Bolton had to be attacked. She wanted it, though.

The mad queen scenario is wrong, even if it was intended. The producers evidently thought they were writing a supervillain with misdirects, but they inadvertently wrote a heroine. Everything now to support their supervillain plan has to falsify the character they wrote---which they did, however much they misunderstood---or rely on stupid tripe like the ridiculous one party secret annulment or a double standard where Sansa is justified by her belief in hereditary monarchy but Daenerys isn't.

That's why I tend to sympathize with her, because she did (more than a few times) set aside her "destiny" to do the right thing, and lost a lot.

After fighting and bleeding side by side with the northerners, after that whole ordeal, I thought afterwards they might consider her a true friend, but they're giving all of the credit to Jon. In King's Landing, Cersei has the people thinking she's the savior. I can't really blame her all that much for being angry.

But if she shows too much anger, people then thinks she's beginning to go mad. And....the show seems to be hinting at this. Varys has been talking more and more about it.

She does do some bizarre, out of context things sometimes, but The Good Masters and all the rest like them just seem like horrible people (IMO).

By whose standards are we calling people evil? I guess by in world morality, Dany is well on the good side to this point. Of all the people with a sense of entitlement to power, she is so far the best behaved.

In GOT, we're talking about a world that's so morally and ethically messed up, people like Ned Stark and Jon are often referred to as fools because they regularly do the moral thing.

 

[Mr Awe]

I also can't continue to care about Jon and Dany's relationship as a "shipper" because I know that it ultimately doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, you bit really hard into that one. Hook, line, and sinker. It's gonna hurt when they tear that one out!

You seem to have had this fairytale vision of the relationship that just didn't exist and how it was going to save Westeros or something like that. It's actually how you can trace the roots of the problems they're having now way back.

But, why not watch for other aspects of the show? It's still incredibly entertaining. Great characters. Interesting story. And, the relationship served a purpose. It brought Dany's forces to the North to help hold back the dead at the very least. And, that's pretty huge. On the downside, the relationship also caused a dragon to cross over the other side of the wall, get killed, and ultimately destroy a chunk of the wall. Well, you win some and you lose some!

And, who knows, maybe things won't go the way you fear. Although, I'm guessing they way. But, I could be wrong. Seems like you're determined to not like the rest just because this one plot line didn't go the way you wanted.

 

[Miss Chicken]

I find myself comparing Daenerys to truly genuine good people. This includes Jon and Ned but even more so Davos Seaworth. Davos risked his life by letting Gendry go because he knew Gendry was an innocent.

Other people I consider good are Brienne, Pod, Samwell Tarly, and Gendry.

 

[Cyrus]

As if the shit writing of Season 8 weren't bad enough in and of itself, it's started retroactively affecting my enjoyment of the series in general.

As I got to the end of my Season 5 Binge Mode podcast listening, the outrage I feel over how Season 8 has been written started to cut into my enjoyment of the discussions I was listening to.

I also can't continue to care about Jon and Dany's relationship as a "shipper" because I know that it ultimately doesn't mean anything.

Jon and Dany shipper? Talk about watching GoT for the wrong reasons!

And if they don't live happily ever after then it is shit writing? This is a relationship filled with land mines: she has a big ego and temper and wants the throne at any cost. He has a better claim to the throne and is more popular in Westros. And he would make a better ruler, something even Dany's advisors can't help but notice. And they are aunt and nephew. If the writers don't explore these areas of conflict and just make it a happy ending romance then that is shit writing. I could see major problems with this relationship the moment Bran found out about Jon's parents a couple of seasons ago.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I'm glad I've never been very invested in this series. The conclusion I'm coming to is that I can't wait for it to come to a conclusion. I'm particularly disappointed by the dropoff in the quality of the writing that seemed to take place once the novels were not available as source material.

(I've never read the novels and have no interest in reading them. Fantasy is not a genre that has interested me for several decades. I listened to part of the first novel in audiobook form and decided that I would be better off reading historical fiction about the War of the Roses.)

As with Lost, some parts have been great TV moments. Unfortunately, it seems the whole is destined to be much less than the sum of the parts. For me, at least...YVMV.

 

[crookeddy]

Jon and Dany shipper? Talk about watching GoT for the wrong reasons!

And if they don't live happily ever after then it is shit writing? This is a relationship filled with land mines: she has a big ego and temper and wants the throne at any cost. He has a better claim to the throne and is more popular in Westros. And he would make a better ruler, something even Dany's advisors can't help but notice. And they are aunt and nephew. If the writers don't explore these areas of conflict and just make it a happy ending romance then that is shit writing. I could see major problems with this relationship the moment Bran found out about Jon's parents a couple of seasons ago.

People keep explaining this to him but he has his ears covered and is singing "la-la-la-la" at us. If the rest of us foresaw the Dany - Jon conflict, and you are the only one who didn't, maybe it's not shit writing but your own shit comprehension?

(Don't link me to Twitter, a podcast, or a YouTube video)

 

[crookeddy]

The first time Jon and Dany made love was the very next scene after we learn that they are related. Ominous music plays, and Tyrion sees them and has a grim look on his face. That's not foreshadowing that's getting hit in the head with a hammer.

 

[crookeddy]

As with Lost, some parts have been great TV moments. Unfortunately, it seems the whole is destined to be much less than the sum of the parts. For me, at least...YVMV.

Not the same as Lost. It doesn't have hanging unresolved threads and mysteries... Well, at least not as many as Lost. Another show with similar issues is BSG, and I think GOT is doing a better (though not perfect) job of wrapping up than either of those two shows.

 

[Jax]

Next week is going to be bad for Euron...

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Not the same as Lost. It doesn't have hanging unresolved threads and mysteries... Well, at least not as many as Lost. Another show with similar issues is BSG, and I think GOT is doing a better (though not perfect) job of wrapping up than either of those two shows.

All three shows seem to have had difficulties with navigating their way to the end -- either because they had no clear end in mind (Lost and new BSG) or there is nothing except the most sketchy roadmap to a known end (GoT). In new BSG, I seem to recall there was a scene where Adama literally painted himself into a corner of his quarters with real paint and then sat on the floor sobbing. I expect that was an injoke by the writers about their situation at the time.