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Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

It's not a new phenomenon; movie novelizations date back to the silent era, while I'm pretty sure radio shows like The Lone Ranger and The Green Hornet spawned tie-in novels long before the advent of television. See also The Shadow, who started out on radio before expanding into the pulps.

I believe the classic Superman origin story as we know it -- at least the part about his upbringing with the Kents, as well as the spelling of his birth name as Kal-El instead of Kal-L -- was first codified in a 1942 prose novel by George Lowther, a writer for the Superman radio series.
 
I believe the classic Superman origin story as we know it -- at least the part about his upbringing with the Kents, as well as the spelling of his birth name as Kal-El instead of Kal-L -- was first codified in a 1942 prose novel by George Lowther, a writer for the Superman radio series.
"Kal-el," but yes. Sarah and Eben Kent, though. The story beats for the first third are pretty similar to what we would see on screen four decades later in Superman: The Movie.
 
Lots of stuff came from the radio show, I believe. The classic Fleischer cartoons of the 40s added to the character as well.


I went on a 15 year movie binge when I was young spent a lot of time talking to movie buffs, and none of them ever mentioned tie-in books other than maybe a few sci-fi flicks. I had no idea that novelizations have existed from as far back as the silent era. I think the oldest one I ever read wad Herman Raucher's novelization of Summer of 42. It was surprisingly funny.

This is actually a fascinating subject, imo. Somebody should make a movie about it, and then...
 
But you can listen to what other people think. That's supposed to be the point of conversation -- to listen to other points of view and learn things that might lead you to reassess what you think, or at least gain a better understanding of its context.

Yes, I agree, and I do try. I sometimes get caught up in my own arguments. It was like that debate I waded into about Spock and Burnham. I started arguing a viewpoint I actually didn't think was that important to me. And sometimes I do reassess my opinion. My thoughts on the novel Vulcan! are an example. After discussing it here I realized there is validity to the argument about the character being a Mary Sue. And I learned a little more just what a Mary Sue was in literature.

I'm finding it very hard to reconcile Discovery with the rest of Star Trek right now. It's new to me as I never personally thought of that as a major issue in earlier shows. It goes back to that I never sweated the small stuff. But I realize for others they may feel differently, and still others may not care.

There have always been people who thought that every new incarnation of Trek was impossible to reconcile with what came before, and yet other people alongside and after them -- including you -- decided that it could be reconciled after all, and it was the latter opinion that always won out. If you think about those other people's points of view and compare them with your own point of view about Discovery, you might gain some perspective beyond your own point of view.

Yes and no. What I mean is that in the past, when I watched shows, I didn't notice the discontinuities as much. When the Wounded came out I didn't actually give any thought to the Cardassian War and it's affect on TNG up to that point. Now that some people pointed it out, yeah, I can see how some might see that as an inconsistency, but it's something I can easily think of an explanation for. I'm a little backward on the Klingon change since my first exposure to Star Trek was the films actually. I felt like O'Brien on DS9 when I first saw my original series Klingon (In "Friday's Child" for the record)….I said "That's a KLINGON ?!?!" :wtf: Yes, that was a bit of a headscratcher I'll admit. Probably my first exposure to a discontinuity. And I just accepted that because, well, I had no choice. I knew the real world answer once I thought about it (that being films provided more resources for such things). And one of the novels I read at the time, was it "The Final Reflection" maybe, provided a possible genetic reason, similar to Enterprise's rationale. Ok, well, I'm getting off topic.

But I have noted I'm open to the possibility that Discovery will turn a corner for me. While I'm good at avoiding major spoilers, it does sound like they are starting to provide a roadmap this season that starts to bring it more in context. I'll look forward to seeing that. And I keep pointing out it's not that I don't like Discovery. I'm not ready to say I love it or anything yet. But half the battle's won in that I don't hate it.

Or Dallas dismissing an entire season as just a dream while its spinoff Knots Landing continued to refer to events of that season as real.

Another favorite show of mine (Dallas that is), and evidence of the worse possible way to fix a discontinuity. Wiping out an entire season (and some pretty good storylines IMO) is never a good method. Not to mention they barely even acknowledge the dream. Bobby simply tells Pam it was all a dream. I don't think the viewers really knew just how significant that was initially, that it wasn't just Pam and Mark and things involving Pam, but everything, including things Pam had nothing to do with. And it was a poor reset, as many things at the end of season 8 were gone, like Dusty's return, and a few things from season 9 were carried forward, like falling oil prices. Viewers were probably quite confused initially as a result. And that was a case where a discontinuity can be costly. Dallas was never the same after that. They lost a lot of viewers, the Knots Landing showrunners were furious that they weren't considered (and any future crossovers were effectively killed as Knots Landing wasn't willing to wipe out an entire season from their show).

Ok, I'm getting off track again. Anyway I don't see anything like that with Discovery. As problematic as I may find some of the inconsistencies, they no where reached the level Dallas did with pretending an entire 31 episode season never happened. I've watched the dream season, and the future seasons (including the 2012 revival series), but that stunt, when they wiped out season 9, still makes me shake my head all these years later :rolleyes:.
 
I'll admit I raised an eyebrow when the Cardassians and a whole Cardassian War came out of nowhere in "The Wounded," but the episode was so good, and the Cardassians proved to be such a good addition to Trek, that I got over it quickly.
 
I went on a 15 year movie binge when I was young spent a lot of time talking to movie buffs, and none of them ever mentioned tie-in books other than maybe a few sci-fi flicks. I had no idea that novelizations have existed from as far back as the silent era. I think the oldest one I ever read wad Herman Raucher's novelization of Summer of 42. It was surprisingly funny.

This is actually a fascinating subject, imo. Somebody should make a movie about it, and then...

What Happened to Mary (1912) is often cited as the first movie novelization, although technically it ran as a magazine serial first before being collected in book form. But many long-forgotten silent melodramas were novelized, enough so that you actually had writers churning out several of them in their careers, while the word "novelization" is possibly older than movies. (There were once novelizations of stageplays.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Happened_to_Mary

Notable movies that got the novelization treatment were The Thief of Bagdad (1925), The Jazz Singer (1927), and King Kong (1933).

Believe it or not, I actually did a presentation on the topic at the Library of Congress a few years back!
 
Lots of stuff came from the radio show, I believe. The classic Fleischer cartoons of the 40s added to the character as well.

Yes, the radio show introduced the characters of Jimmy Olsen, Perry White, and Inspector Bill Henderson, as well as introducing kryptonite, the famous opening narration, and most of the catchphrases associated with the character (like "This looks like a job for Superman" and "Up, up, and away," in order to verbally describe things that the comics would just show visually). The Daily Planet originated in the daily Superman newspaper comic strip (changed from the original Daily Star because the strip was carried by several newspapers that had rivals named the Daily Star).

As for the Fleischer cartoons, they pretty much introduced having Superman fly instead of jumping, although the comics and radio show had often been ambiguous about that; and they're also the primary source for the iconic image of Superman changing in a phone booth, something he never really did in the comics except on occasions where writers wanted to make fun of the cliche of Superman changing in a phone booth. Plus Sammy Timberg's Superman theme from the Fleischer shorts was the original template for most subsequent Superman themes including John Williams's.

Anyway, I brought up the novel as an example of '40s tie-in novels to radio shows. Given that it was written by Lowther, the book probably counts more as a radio tie-in than a comics tie-in.


I went on a 15 year movie binge when I was young spent a lot of time talking to movie buffs, and none of them ever mentioned tie-in books other than maybe a few sci-fi flicks.

I once owned a novelization of Forbidden Planet. It was interestingly different from the movie, since it was written in epistolary form as a couple of different characters' first-person journals, and so it contains a lot of stuff that wasn't in the movie and leaves out a lot of stuff that was, because the viewpoint characters writing the journals weren't there to witness them. I say "interestingly," but that format made it a bit unsatisfying for me.


I'm finding it very hard to reconcile Discovery with the rest of Star Trek right now.

Honestly, so am I, in some ways. I also had trouble reconciling a lot of things in earlier productions, like many of the movies and a lot of VGR and ENT episodes. And there are things in TOS itself that I've always had trouble reconciling. But my opinion doesn't count. Future productions will presumably treat DSC as part of the same continuity as the rest, just as they've done with all the previous series and movies. I've learned to accept that reality.

Heck, part of the reason I became a science fiction writer was so that I could create my own original universes and give them the consistency and credibility I so rarely got from Star Trek and other SFTV. And yet I still end up with imperfect continuity in my original fiction, despite my best efforts.


What Happened to Mary (1912) is often cited as the first movie novelization, although technically it ran as a magazine serial first before being collected in book form. But many long-forgotten silent melodramas were novelized, enough so that you actually had writers churning out several of them in their careers, while the word "novelization" is possibly older than movies. (There were once novelizations of stageplays.)

But what about original prose fiction tying in to film or radio series? The Shadow pulps probably qualify, since they didn't just adapt the radio show, but were they the earliest examples?
 
But what about original prose fiction tying in to film or radio series? The Shadow pulps probably qualify, since they didn't just adapt the radio show, but were they the earliest examples?

Good question. Some quick googling reveals that there were a whole passel of LONE RANGER tie-in novels starting in 1936, which puts him still a few years behind the Shadow. I'm assuming they're new adventures, not just adaptations of the radio scripts, but can't confirm that 100%
 
I once owned a novelization of Forbidden Planet. It was interestingly different from the movie, since it was written in epistolary form as a couple of different characters' first-person journals, and so it contains a lot of stuff that wasn't in the movie and leaves out a lot of stuff that was, because the viewpoint characters writing the journals weren't there to witness them. I say "interestingly," but that format made it a bit unsatisfying for me.

I've got a copy of this. I like it for the reasons you list - it does add to what we see onscreen. I like that, while it may not describe everything in the film it does add some interesting character perspectives and some tantalizing hints about the larger world the characters live in.
 
Honestly, so am I, in some ways. I also had trouble reconciling a lot of things in earlier productions, like many of the movies and a lot of VGR and ENT episodes. And there are things in TOS itself that I've always had trouble reconciling. But my opinion doesn't count. Future productions will presumably treat DSC as part of the same continuity as the rest, just as they've done with all the previous series and movies. I've learned to accept that reality.

Nah, of course your opinion counts. ;) Probably a little more than mine as you are in the business.

But, perhaps, ironically, that's why you (and those that feel similarly) find it easier to accept the discontinuities in Discovery. You've seen inconsistent things for years. You've grown to accept them, or at least be able to live with them or tolerate them if nothing else.

Me, I haven't noticed things as much. Some changes, like the change of appearance in Klingons, the Trill between "The Host" and DS9, yes. But some things you've noted I hadn't picked up on before. I remember you mentioning in another thread about some of the changes in Data's emotions, or lack thereof in later seasons for instance. Now, after you mention it, I can see that particular viewpoint. But it's not something I picked up on before. Or it was something minor enough I could explain it away with minimal effort.

So for me, finding a show this hard to reconcile with past Star Trek is sort of new. It's really the first time I've noticed continuity issues at this level. It's not as easy for me to explain away. Perhaps, in time, it will bother me less and less. Perhaps the show itself will start to explain some of that away as well. But it's the first time for me personally that I can say I have continuity issues with a show. It'll take time for me to adjust.
 
Is the Alan Dean Foster novelization of Alien as good as people say it is? I've been doing a little googling and that one seems to pop up on a lot of people's lists.

There are so many odd ones out there, that I can't stop making random searches. Some are pretty funny, like Manos the Hand of Fate, Howard the Duck, Fonzie Goes to College, and Airwolf.

There are some cool ones too, though. Three Wild Wild West books, a Kolchak anthology, a novelization of Outland, Fantastic Voyage and several more. Barnes and Noble gives a nice plug to Greg's Godzilla novelization:

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/sci-fi-fantasy/12-essential-sci-fi-fantasy-film-novelizations/

I'll have to keep an eye out the next time I go to a bookstore.
 
There are some cool ones too, though. Three Wild Wild West books, a Kolchak anthology, a novelization of Outland, Fantastic Voyage and several more.

Isaac Asimov's Fantastic Voyage novelization is amazing. Back then, movie studios didn't mind if a novelizer made changes to the story (cf. the aforementioned Forbidden Planet novelization), and Asimov was free to make major changes to the details of the story in order to make it more scientifically plausible and fix its plot holes. It's an intriguing read in its own right, and it's intriguing to compare the two versions and see how Asimov reworked or clarified things.
 
Isaac Asimov's Fantastic Voyage novelization is amazing. Back then, movie studios didn't mind if a novelizer made changes to the story (cf. the aforementioned Forbidden Planet novelization), and Asimov was free to make major changes to the details of the story in order to make it more scientifically plausible and fix its plot holes. It's an intriguing read in its own right, and it's intriguing to compare the two versions and see how Asimov reworked or clarified things.

I've actually run into people who don't realize that was a novelization. They think the movie was based on Asimov's novel, or maybe that it was some sort of collaborative thing like 2001.

But, yes, I think novelizers did have a bit more latitude back in the day. I understand that, at times, it was not uncommon for novelizers to add sex scenes to spice up the paperbacks. Not sure I'd get away with that today. :)

(Although my first UNDERWORLD novelization does feature a sex scene that was cut out of the movie. I like to think of it as a Bonus Feature.)
 
I've actually run into people who don't realize that was a novelization. They think the movie was based on Asimov's novel, or maybe that it was some sort of collaborative thing like 2001.

That's because the novel was actually released before the film. The hardcover edition came out in March '66, then the film was released in late August and the paperback came out in September to cross-promote with it. It's hard to believe in these spoiler-phobic times, but a lot of movie novelizations used to be released ahead of time to build interest for the film. After all, many films were adaptations of novels, so having prior knowledge of a story from a book was seen as something that would create more interest in a film, not "spoil" it as we assume today.
 
That's because the novel was actually released before the film. The hardcover edition came out in March '66, then the film was released in late August and the paperback came out in September to cross-promote with it. It's hard to believe in these spoiler-phobic times, but a lot of movie novelizations used to be released ahead of time to build interest for the film. After all, many films were adaptations of novels, so having prior knowledge of a story from a book was seen as something that would create more interest in a film, not "spoil" it as we assume today.

I actually remember that on a smaller scale with some of the original series Star Trek films. I remember the Star Trek V and VI novelizations came out about a week before the film (at least in the US). I read both books before the film came out. In V's case I thought the novel was superior to the film and was a bit disappointed when I saw the movie.

Reading VI before the film was a mistake though, since I know who did it before I saw it. Oops :ouch:

I mean it's not an exact parallel since we all know a Star Trek film would never be based on a novel in that sense. But your comment made me think of that.
 
The novelization of the original Star Wars (by Alan Dean Foster ghostwriting as "George Lucas") was released six months before the movie came out, in hopes of building audience interest. Similarly, the first issue of Marvel's comics adaptation came out a month ahead of the film. The novelization of The Empire Strikes Back also came out a month ahead of the film -- yes, they gave away the huge twist a month in advance, and they didn't see a problem with that.
 
Novelizations have almost always been released prior to the movie. It's only been in the last decade that an effort has been made to hold the novelization back until after the movie's release, I think The Dark Knight was the first instance of this I noticed. Hell, with the two most recent Star Wars movies, their novelizations were released in conjunction with the movie's home media releases.
 
Novelizations have almost always been released prior to the movie. It's only been in the last decade that an effort has been made to hold the novelization back until after the movie's release, I think The Dark Knight was the first instance of this I noticed.

That's true; however, studios have grown more afraid of giving away spoilers, and so some novelizations released in advance have been required to change the endings to preserve the films' secrets. The novelization of Warren Beatty's Dick Tracy had to leave out the revelation of the Blank's true identity, so that question was never answered in the book; and the novelization of X2: X-Men United had an alternate ending in which Jean Grey didn't sacrifice herself.
 
Ideally, from a publishing standpoint, you wanted the book to hit maybe a month before the movie opened, in order to capitalize on all the advance hype and publicity for the film, as well as to grab folks who just couldn't wait to find out what happened in the movie. There was also the fact that, to be honest, all movies are "hits" until they open, so you kinda want to sell the book BEFORE people find out whether it's a bomb or not. :)

True story: Many, many years ago, a studio wouldn't let me put "Based on the Hit Movie!" on the front cover of a novelization because, "Honestly, Greg, we don't think it's going to be a hit."

(It was clear that the studio had already pretty much written the movie off.)

We compromised on "Based on the Major Motion Picture!" :)
 
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