I think for some people, the problem isn’t the message. The problem is how it’s being delivered, and even a little bit whom.
Sometimes, it’s like trying to sell ice makers to eskimos at gun point. *shrug*
Feelings Halfway Through The Series
- Thread starter StCoop
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I think for some people, the problem isn’t the message. The problem is how it’s being delivered, and even a little bit whom.
Sometimes, it’s like trying to sell ice makers to eskimos at gun point. *shrug*
See, the one point I would disagree on is that good allegory isn’t easy and safe. It’s hard an powerful, and it gets the point to people that a borderline non-fiction story won’t. It’s not likely the ku klux klan or Illinois Nazis or what have you are book who fans, but even if they were, they aren’t gonna watch Rosa, and aren’t gonna get it. That’s what allegory is for.
For example?
Yeah, I don't understand this simile. Who is the eskimo, what is the ice maker, and who is holding the gun and why? Why do you feel the show Doctor Who is using a gun on its viewers?
Preaching to the converted, and using the subtlety of a brick through the window. Your average long term who fan isn’t exactly gonna be far off what might be called progressive or liberal depending on the definition these days. Once it starts feeling preachy, it turns some people off. Once it starts hitting the broad strokes and you get the crusading in fandom it gets peoples backs up. And often enough it’s not the people’s its taregtting, and some people will just never see the message while the message consumes the delivery media if that’s all it becomes.
The trick is subtlety and leading your audience by the hand. Sometimes it’s a smash to the face and demanding they dance, rather than putting a path in and getting them to think.
This isn’t really me talking about this years Who so much, more discussing why people often get hacked off by what is nominally called PC, largely in reference to stories including Who.
This is especially true when you look at fan reaction....it’s only gonna rub more people up the wrong way if they are then decried or insulted for not toeing the line.
We see it elsewhere too ‘I don’t like the ghostbusters reboot’ can automatically be responded to ‘well, that’s cos you’re a sexist’ (or misogynist, which is not really an interchangeable term.) without pausing to see why they didn’t like it. Then you get the argument and no ones learned anything, but there’s another polarised battle. Nature of wider geekdom these days, and one we see here.
There’s usually then an invitation to leave the fandom shall we say. Which always a nonsense fight. ‘If you hate it don’t watch it’ always has the logical response of ‘I’ve supported it xx number of years, I’m allowed a dissenting opinion’. Then we get another pissing match and a scramble for some subjective moral high ground.
It’s not hard to think about benign reasons why too much of a moral crusade could be putting people off. It’s just easier to other them and yell at them. Guess it depends what people are looking to achieve.
Honestly? Given some of the responses to the casting, I don't think that's altogether true. And some of the responses to Rosa, also, I don't think that's altogether true.
Personally, I'm constantly surprised at how much more conservative the audience for science fiction really is.
Also, I didn't really think I was being preached to, and I'm probably as converted as it gets. I didn't feel Rosa or Demons was preaching to me. One of the things that hit home (and to be reminded of), and somewhat personally, as my wife is Indian, that bigotry isn't just what white people do.
Again, to be honest, I feel like the people who are the most turned off to hearing stories about bigotry and race, are the ones who are the most uncomfortable talking about bigotry and race, and are the exact ones that should be hearing and seeing stories about race.
I've met enough people who have said, "I'm not racists, BUT..."
You felt the Demons of Punjabs was a smash to the face? I mean, it was emotionally, for me. But, I suspect you mean it in a different way.
What was smashing in the face about Rosa? Also, given the nature of world politics, where leaders world wide are using bigotry to gain power, do you really think subtly is a good response?
But what line is being asked to be toed? Do we really need to debate whether or not being a bigot is wrong? To be sexist is wrong? To be homophobic is wrong?
Are they being rubbed the wrong way because maybe some of their own prejudice is being called out? It's happened to me, and I went through a range of emotions, until I realized, yeah, I was being a shit.
That's fair. But, to be frank, there were some people who didn't like it JUST because it featured women. I didn't see it because it looked like a terribly over improvised movie.
Yeah, I hear you. But, I also feel, it's just a TV show. So, why keep watching something you don't like? One of the great things like Doctor Who, it will change... new producer, new Doctor, always a good (re)jumping on point.
I guess I don't understand why people get so stressed out. Though, full admission, I get stressed out when I see fans being racists, sexist and homophobic. I will call that shit out, because it's shit behavior. I would do that same thing if someone was talking about books, music, etc. So...
I guess, in the end, Doctor Who has ALWAYS been a moral crusade. The Daleks, of course, are replacements for the Nazis--that's low hanging fruit. But, the Doctor has ALWAYS fought for good over evil, for light over dark, for life over destruction. They ARE a moral crusader to their core, it's one of the reasons they left the Time Lords, because the Time Lords did NOTHING, they sat on the side lines.
Well after a break given my initial reaction I watched Demons Of Punjab, Kablam! and the latest episode. I've warmed up a bit - enough to watch the next one when it comes out. I wasn't completely unimpressed but a long way off from being blown away. I would be keen to see this Doctor's darker side.
This is something I first sort of encountered in the Star Trek AOL/IRC "Simulation" groups. There was a slow creep as the shows went off the air - and especially after the Dominion War - from Sci-Fi exploration to Sci-Fi Military LARP in our crews. Not necessarily bad, but I was consistently surprised by some of the missed "moral lessons" in plots as characters blasted their ways through plots - sometimes humorously, sometimes glaringly ethically challenged.
There are also the pseudo-religious aspects to it.
I wasn’t talking about Rosa or Demons, or even Who as such, ike I said...it was more general terms. The smash in the face etc is one of these examples.
In terms of toeing the line...that’s just something people don’t like sometimes. Some people just don’t like being preached at, or feeling like they are, when they don’t need it. Some people are ok with a dash of preach in their entertainment, other people don’t mi t when it’s a whole bowl of ‘here’s the moral folks’.
Who has always had something of a moral crusade, but most of this little discussion is me basically saying ‘it’s about how it’s done’ as to whether people are gonna respond favourably to that.
For some people things like Who is an escape. You dollop the crusade too high and possible water down the story and the escape part, and you are just reminding people of stuff they already hate...when they want a break from dealing with crappy stuff in the real world.
In terms of ‘just stop watching’ well, as I have already said, sometimes these things are important to people. You wouldn’t tell someone to just move home if they don’t like the way the area has changed around it would you?
We might not mind the changes, but sometimes someone does, and sometimes it’s not for what might be callled bad reasons. It we assume it’s not, and they aren’t raging about it in a negative manner...maybe just listening is the answer, and responding in the same restrained manner. *shrug*
I tend to agree. Most know where I stand on the is starfleet a military question.
Assuming people are the enemy is often the problem though. There’s nothing inherently evil in small c conservatism. There’s nothing inherently evil in small s socialist values. But boy can the sparks fly once people start deciding they are enemies.
I'm not that big of a Doctor Who historian, but back in the 1960s, times were a lot different than today.
What I have seen is that this season, the show seems to have become about race and gender, rehashing the types of stories you would find on 1970s American TV. It's not just PC, it's out of date, as being done.
I guess there's nothing wrong with shows about these topics, but Doctor Who has been, since I've been watching, a creative sci-fi show about a good alien that defends the defenseless against bad aliens, with cool time travel and an amazing mythology thrown in. That's simplistic and one part of the show, but that's a lot of it.
I've looked online, and even in this thread, and I'm seeing I'm not alone in noticing a difference.
Hate to break it to you, but not everyone reads every single thread on this board.
Judging BY the quality, that has more to do with the novelty of a new doctor than the actual show. If everything was as incredible as you clearly wish it were, then the constant talk about the dip in quality and both Whitaker and Chibnall leaving wouldn't exist.
Like it or not, there are issues with the show right now. It's not right.
Um, guess you didn't know that in 2009, they rebooted TOS with different actors playing Kirk and Spock--and did not make these PC changes. But it is not apples and oranges. It's the exact same thing.
They made a conscious choice to not use the original characters on those Trek shows. They were smart enough to get their desired results with original characters. The Doctor is a white male and casting a woman is only about political correctness and checking a box, so they can get on a soapbox and be fake outraged when people call them out on it.
There is absolutely nothing special about Jodie Whitaker as the Doctor. She isn't a bad actress, but she is not commanding this role. Not in the slightest. She only got the role because of her gender. They made a check the box demand, and the result has gone over about as well as the female Ghostbusters.
Because the Doctor is a man, and they didn't cast someone with a different accent to make a political point and check a box.
Russell Davies or Steven Moffat did not take the job on the condition they could cast a doctor with a Scottish accent.
PC is about limiting language and discussion based on the norms of a bunch of smug people who demand you think the way they do lest you be ostracized. PC is about giving people who don't deserve something a job that they didn't earn because of anything other than qualification for the role. PC is changing classic characters just to check a box and smugly brag about how "progressive" you are.
PC lowers quality.
Or it's about opening up a role to a much wider pool of candidates than you would have before? One day I'd hope that a Doctor Who casting call will go to all and sundry, and the best candidate gets the job, be they male or female, black or white. I don't know what Jodie's casting was like, though the impression I've got is that she wasn't remotely the only candidate so even if a conscious decision was made to cast a woman then the process wasn't remotely a fait accomplit in her favour. I know Walsh didn't have to audition and basically just got the part as Graham, which if anything is more annoying.
Does her casting and some of the other decisions in the show feel a bit forced, yes, is that necessarily a bad thing? No. Sometimes decisions have to be forced otherwise nothing ever changes. I think it could have been way better handled, and watching Sabrina last night I'd have loved someone like Michelle Gomez to play the Doctor because she just owns the screen no matter who else is on there with her, but a female Doctor isn't remotely the show killer some said it would be. I think they just shouldn't have swamped her with companions and she needs better material.
Can you give me an example then, if it's not about Rosa or Demons? What is an example of "smashing in the face" that's not about those two episodes? I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand.
You don't think almost every good episode featuring the Daleks doesn't have a moral? Almost every RTD story has a moral. Almost every Doctor Who story has a moral.
But, what's an example from this series?
Fair enough. But, is there an example that's not Rosa and Demons?
Fair enough, but, two episodes in 50 years to feature bigotry in a historical context, doesn't seem like a whole lot, yet the reaction... let's just say, it seems disproportionate. Again, two episodes in 50 some years...
Well. I don't know. First, it's a little silly to compare watching a TV show that doesn't really cost you anything to not watch and living in an apartment or a house. But, I'll entertain the idea...
Would I tell someone to move? Possibly. I guess it depends on the circumstances. I had some friends that moved to Southern California, Burbank, to be specific. They moved there because they could get the most bang for the buck. Problem is, no one they knew lived near them. And parking was terrible. So, once home, they never wanted to go anywhere. And they were miserable. A year and a half later, they moved back home to Iowa. And they were much happier.
My wife were living in a neighborhood in Jersey City, and one night, some one broke into our apartment while we were there. As soon as we were able, we moved.
I've moved into neighborhoods that at first I didn't like, but, I made do.
Now, would I tell someone who to move if the area changed around them? I guess, it depends on how it changed. If it changed into a drug crime area and they weren't safe, yeah, sure, I would tell them to move. If changed into a yuppie neighborhood filled with annoying gentrifiers, and they didn't like it, maybe I'd tell them to move, maybe not. But, if the neighborhood turned into something they HATED, then, yeah, I would tell them to move. Why would you live somewhere you hate?
If they wanted to move because a couple of black people moved in, I would tell them to shut their racist mouths. Ok, I wouldn't be that rude to a friend, but, I would call them out on it.
So, in the end, it depends. But, again, living arrangements that cost money and watching or not watching a TV show that doesn't cost a significant amount of money, seems strange.
People have a relationship with a TV show. So, let's compare it to relationships. Would you tell someone to stay in a relationship they are fundamentally not happy in? In fact, the relationship, that was once fun and thrilling, has become "preachy" and no fun. In fact, your friend HATES what the person has become. Would you tell them to stay in that relationship? When there's no marriage, no kids, no responsibilities, and the possibility of a relationship out there that is fun and thrilling?
I'm not saying someone has to like a show because I do. And I do listen to those who don't like it. But, when I hear someone doesn't like it because it's "PC" or because there's a woman is playing the Doctor or because someone how we need to hear "both sides" of bigotry... there's stuff there that should be called out and unpacked. And to be blunt, if talking about race makes you uncomfortable, that, too, should be talked about.
If someone isn't engaged in Whitaker's performance, or they don't like the lack of bombast, or they don't like the music.... ok, sure.
I get it, you just want a purely escapist show. But, through out Doctor Who's history, the better episodes have been much more than pure escapist. In fact, I would argue, the worst of Who is the ones that merely that.
That's patently ridiculous. It doesn't limit language and discussion. You are free to say whatever you want, it's the CONSEQUENCES that have changed. You are free to tell a racist joke at work, you are free to say something sexist or homophobic, and, yeah, you will rightly be called out for it. And, perhaps, even fired. Should someone have to work next to someone who thinks it's totally cool to drop the n-word?
Freedom of speech, at least in the United States, isn't freedom of consequences.
What is it that you want to say that you feel you can't because "PC" has limited your language?
If you sincerely mean this, and you're not concern trolling:
Then, if the show is about an alien traveling around time and space with one or more companions, why does that alien need to have testicles? What does the gender have to do with the quality of the storytelling?
Then, if the show is about an alien traveling around time and space with one or more companions, why does that alien need to have testicles? What does the gender have to do with the quality of the storytelling?
Absolutely fuck-all
Don't forget: a body changing alien, whose species can change gender as they change bodies.
Find the place where I say PC is limiting my language. I will wait.
You are conflating me with other posters.
(Also, I think many episodes of who deal with bigotry. I love the whole little grey blobs with cybernetic enhancements discussion, because it totally gets at the heart of stuff. The Dalek have some of the finest allegory going on a good day.)
I’ll have one final go at explaining why some might not find it their cup of tea (whilst ignoring actual bigots, because that’s a different thing...I am talking about lumping people in with bigots.) by going to a less contentious example.
Ready Player One. Some people fucking hate it for all the trivia. Some people love it. But some of the people that hate it for the trivia are ok with say Big Bang theory, or Deadpool, or Guardians of the Galaxy.
So...for some, a big fat dollop of nostalgia is great, for others, just a hint of Say Anything will do. Is one of these positions somehow wrong?
It’s the same with messaging in your fiction. Some will be at the TOS taste level, and others won’t watch that....without it necessarily being because they disagree with the message.
I am down with messaging in my fiction, I do it myself, and think it’s a big part of the point in stories. Sometimes though it’s not about making a judgement so much as making you think. Sometimes it’s best to have a story that can read in contradictory ways (something Moffat does really well sometimes.) because of subtlety or thoughtfulness. That’s what I prefer, but have no real allergy to the thundercats reminding me to do my seatbelt up either.
I don’t like tone deaf stuff like a blonde white lead telling a young black male that knives are for idiots whilst extolling Sheffield steel. That was clumsy and tone deaf. But I think it was more accident than design, and if it was design...well, I suppose it can’t hurt, but I can’t imagine the postcode gangs giving up their blades because Doctor Who said to.
Edit: oh. Home. It’s because if a place has been a persons home for their entire life before the hipsters came, then it’s damned hard to tell them to move on (assuming it’s even possible.) That’s the level Who is for some. It’s watching with their father before the divorce, sat on their lap, it’s losing themselves in the fictional world as a teen when in the real world they are miserable, it’s a little thing that maybe played along their life since they were big enough to walk or earlier, maybe it go’s back generations. It’s home.
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Besides, "eskimo" is racist. Inuit is at least the most accepted term now.
Maybe we need another few episodes like this afterall.
Of course I know TOS was rebooted in 2009. But in your post you were talking about DS9 and Voyager, which were not remakes or continuations of TOS. So why would you bring up the Abrams films in response to my post?
But okay, you want to bring the Abrams films into this. How about STID which did cast someone of a different skin colour in a role? Of course, there, they cast a white guy to play an Indian character who had originally been played by a Latino actor. But I guess anything that gives white men work is okay with you, huh?
So, you accept that a man near death can undergo a process which completely changes his appearance, height, weight, and build of body, colour of eyes, colour, length, and style of hair, voice and accent, not to mention how many heads they have (Ninth Doctor: "I could end up with two heads or none") but should he change his gender or skin colour and suddenly it's a step too far and the work of an SJW agenda?
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Shame the popular phrase has always been Eskimo. But assume you weren’t serious anyway. To be honest I wouldn’t call a fridge freezer an ice maker either, but phrases are what they are.
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