I would like to say I understood that post but I didn't. I think I'll bow out at this point as I feel like we are talking past each other at this point.
News TLJ Negative Buzz Amplified by Russian Trolls, Study Finds
- Thread starter Tuskin38
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Retreating to essentially a hate-group (the echo-chamber) because someone called you out, is not the actions of a reasonable person in the first place. If it was, then every minority in the world would have either have risen up in bloody vengeance ages ago, or died out.
You’re not going to reason with them. They’re not reasonable. You are not their therapist, and some of these ‘trolls’ - who had previously came across as the common arseholes haunting Reddit - have killed their own parents for pushing them to break off from the ‘echo chamber.’
‘Treating them like humans,’ does not mean entertaining them, or giving them the time that you could be using on more fruitful labours. It just means you don’t slap down a hand that’s sincerely reaches out for help (which means they have to have helped themselves first), and oh say...enact legislation that declares they don’t exist.
You’re not going to reason with them. They’re not reasonable. You are not their therapist, and some of these ‘trolls’ - who had previously came across as the common arseholes haunting Reddit - have killed their own parents for pushing them to break off from the ‘echo chamber.’
‘Treating them like humans,’ does not mean entertaining them, or giving them the time that you could be using on more fruitful labours. It just means you don’t slap down a hand that’s sincerely reaches out for help (which means they have to have helped themselves first), and oh say...enact legislation that declares they don’t exist.
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Nor did I imply anything of the sort.
Also, I am a therapist and work hard to treat humans as humans. Period. That will not end, no matter how assholish the behavior. Also, this relates to personal relationships not as society in general. As I have tried to make distinct. Again, talking past each other.
It lets them know that their behavior is no longer acceptable. They used to be able to get away with it because the majority agreed with them. Those times are over and it can no longer be dismissed. Homophobia, transphobia, racism, sexism and every other form of bigotry is an act of violence against the victim. It is an evil that must never be tolerated, laughed off or dismissed. It needs to go into the shadows were it can die. I care about the feelings of LGBTQ people, people of color, women and every group that gets hated in society, I don’t care about the feelings of bigots. They gave up that right the moment they let those vile words come out of their mouths. If you had been the target of that abuse, you’d understand.
Allowing bigots to be bigots allows their hate to spread because silence is consent for them. If you don’t object, then to them you must agree but are too afraid to say it. By dismissing it, you’re just helping the bigots. Think carefully about why you feel that way, because the best way to fight hate is by stopping bigotry not allowing it to blossom.
If they don't show other people respect, then they don't deserve my respect.
That's an admirable stance, but it's also incredibly ignorant and naive when it comes to dealing with reprehensible people.
That's easy to say when your basic humanity isn't being ripped to shreds by bigots, one of which is the President of the US.
Tone policing by the privileged falls flat.
Then you know that it’s a bad idea to treat people that aren’t your client. Or anyone that you have a personal relationship with.
Why are you under the impression that simply avoiding dangerous, toxic, or unpleasant behaviour, is inhumane? Not socialising with the purposefully unsociable, is treating them like they’re human.
Do you know who does dehumanise others? The nimrods running around and calling people like you ‘NPC’s.’ Because youre just an empty, thoughtless shell, repeating preprogrammed platitudes. Geddit?
(Yes, I’m aware that ‘insult’ is completely hilarious, and basically acts as a self-own. I’m half-convinced that it was secretly started by those dreaded ess-jay-doubleyous, to trick idiots into humiliating themselves.)
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I think there are quite a lot of people who wouldn't care and are in fact proud of it.
Well, calling them a bigot won't make them open minded. More likely make them double down on their views.
What does my personal background or experience have to do with it? You have no idea of my experiences and I am not going to start using it to justify an opinion. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing.
I'm not allowing bigots to be bigots. But i'd rather find a better way to handle them than just shouting back at them.
I am not dismissing it.
I think we are on the same side but our ideas of how to stop it are different.
Education is the way, changing society, teaching that people aren't different to one another, that they are equal. Bigotry is deeply rooted. One swift action is not going to remove it.
Hate begets hate.
No, it is my experience and what I strive for daily.
Quite right. I'm also aware of how to interact with people I find reprehensible and wish to build a personal relationship with.
They also expect it.
This is a very important point. Calling people out on bigotry is fine and all but what are we to replace it with? "Stop being a bigot!" is a great slogan but does precisely zero to actually change behavior on a personal level. It just feels like labeling and tribalism so that those who are bigots are not treated as humans but a mob of people who are undesirable to interact with.
One of the more effective ways to overcome bigotry is for the bigots to get to personally know people whom they are prejudiced against. The idea is that they learn that the people they were prejudiced against aren't bad like they thought they would be, and personal stakes can develop. But this isn't always feasible or desirable, and some people will never be receptive to change.
My main point here is that the Internet is not really conducive to this sort of approach, not that the above sorts of scenarios constitute an approach so much as a reality that can occur in an integrated society. Online it is too easy to disengage with environments that you don't want to be a part of and reengage with others you prefer. And so: bubbles. And of course there are all the myriad issues regarding actually getting to know someone personally in a way that can translate into real life interactions, issues that I really don't need to go into. In real life situations, like workplace and school, disengagement isn't always an option. Reasoning with recalcitrant trolls and with bots are futile endeavors.
I agree that divisive dialog isn't likely to accomplish anything, but on the other hand, what actually could, online, specifically?
My main point here is that the Internet is not really conducive to this sort of approach, not that the above sorts of scenarios constitute an approach so much as a reality that can occur in an integrated society. Online it is too easy to disengage with environments that you don't want to be a part of and reengage with others you prefer. And so: bubbles. And of course there are all the myriad issues regarding actually getting to know someone personally in a way that can translate into real life interactions, issues that I really don't need to go into. In real life situations, like workplace and school, disengagement isn't always an option. Reasoning with recalcitrant trolls and with bots are futile endeavors.
I agree that divisive dialog isn't likely to accomplish anything, but on the other hand, what actually could, online, specifically?
Yeah that's...very dangerous considering some of the bigots out there and what they want to do. Fuck knows I will not be in a room with a transphobe just to 'change their mind' at the cost of my own safety.
Yeah, that's why I said this:
And also this:
Online is probably the worst place to have this dialog as it feeds in to personal biases and dehumanizing. Obviously, I am not a person online, nor do I look like my avatar. All the non-verbal elements of human speech are removed, and no, emojis do not count. On the other hand, in person can be very dangerous, as several members here have expressed their concerns in such interactions.
There is no easy answer to support such interactions, unfortunately. That's why taking steps to humanize the other side is so important. That's why I am so anti-labeling of people. I'm all for labeling behaviors. But, labeling people allows for the dehumanizing effect as much as online interactions.
Agreed, labels aren't really helpful and labels amplify the tribalism. It's so easy to reduce someone to a label and nothing more.
Why would you want to do that? If I find a person that reprehensible the absolute last thing I'm going to want to do is "build a personal relationship" with them. If I'm a in a situation where I have no choice but to deal with them on a regular basis, then I'm just going to keep my mouth shut and either a) avoid them, or b) avoid the topic as much possible. If I don't have to interact with them I'll either tell them off, or just walk away.
That's exactly what they are.
People really lack historical perspective. What do you think 'the other side' looked like back in the early 60s? The bigotry was not ambiguous at all back then. Then watch an MLK speech. Did you see him shriek and name-call or did he call for unity and coexistence?
Point being that the way the debate is being handled today accomplishes nothing but increased polarization.
You know I think that is a massive part of it, lol. Reds under the bed is a sorry bit of paranoia here.
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