These are the Voyages... as a middle of season episode
- Thread starter Nathan
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Would it really be all that much of a revelation? It was reveled that Troi dies in the future during TNG's last series episode, yet there she is in the movies. If it was reveled in VOY's fourth season last episode of that Harry Kim would stay a ensign, would that have ruined the last episode of VOY where Harry Kim is in fact still a ensign?
And if the writers did want to kill someone off, then TATV would simply be one possible future.
That's not what happened though. All Good Things is a possible future that was changed and will not come to pass now. These Are The Voyages is set in the actual future of Star Trek during a TNG episode. Sure, the Enterprise NX portions are holograms but it's supposed to be a recreation of historical events. Entirely different to a possible future that may or may not happen. And indeed didn't since the Enterprise-D was destroyed a year later and Riker and Worf didn't fall out over Troi's death.
Obviously historical records can be altered or incorrect so there is a way to write off the holographic portions of TATV if Enterprise had continued but I think it's dumb to state this is what's definitely going to happen and then do a switcheroo in the real final episode. Talk about self defeating and pointless. It wouldn't particularly be a problem when rewatching the entire series from the beginning knowing full well what becomes of the characters in the end (we all know Tasha Yar doesnt make it out of TNG Season One alive when we watch old episodes) but for a first airing I think it's creative suicide.
There was a tv show called Nip/Tuck that did a flash forward to 20 years in the future during one of their seasons. It showed so much of the characters fates that there really wasn't much left to hang around for. Eventually the flash forward was retconned as an acid trip by one of the characters and completely forgotten. Too little too late by that point as the show had already jumped the shark due to reasons not only exclusive to the flashforward but at least the error was corrected.
No, Riker's holographic simulation was meant to represent what actually happened 200 years before. The only 'retcon' a future writer could do was to say that the holographic simulation was inaccurate, not that it was a 'possible outcome.'
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The Enterprise novel "The Good that Men Do" actually does just that. It retcons the episode to a Section 31 plot. It moves the events back to soon after the Terra Prime episodes and has Trip faking his death so he can join Section 31 because of the Romulan threat that soon leads to war. Martin and Mangels use the scene where Trip winks to Archer prior to his 'death' as a sign that maybe things aren't as they seemed. It also changes some other events as well to correct the deficiencies in TATV.
I know it's not "canon" but it was a believable retcon after reading the novel. And it was one of the very few times where a novel retconned an event seen on screen. Personally I was grateful to Pocketbooks and editor Margaret Clark for fixing what I thought was a poor finale to Enterprise.
As to whether it would be better as a mid season episode, I'm not really sure it could be salvaged. It seemed like a pointless episode overall. The events surrounding the Pegasus were solved long ago and I never thought anything was missing from the resolution to that episode. I never sat and wondered why Riker decided to tell all to Picard--in fact, I was never in doubt that he would do the right thing. And as someone else noted I'm not sure what Riker and Troi learned from the events depicted in the episode that helped him with the Pegasus. Berman called it a Valentine to the fans. I'm not a Berman hater, but I'm sorry, that was just about the worse Valentine I ever got
. I'll give Braga credit at least since he admits it didn't turn out the way they thought it would.
The Enterprise novel "The Good that Men Do" actually does just that. It retcons the episode to a Section 31 plot. It moves the events back to soon after the Terra Prime episodes and has Trip faking his death so he can join Section 31 because of the Romulan threat that soon leads to war. Martin and Mangels use the scene where Trip winks to Archer prior to his 'death' as a sign that maybe things aren't as they seemed. It also changes some other events as well to correct the deficiencies in TATV.
I know it's not "canon" but it was a believable retcon after reading the novel. And it was one of the very few times where a novel retconned an event seen on screen. Personally I was grateful to Pocketbooks and editor Margaret Clark for fixing what I thought was a poor finale to Enterprise.
As to whether it would be better as a mid season episode, I'm not really sure it could be salvaged. It seemed like a pointless episode overall. The events surrounding the Pegasus were solved long ago and I never thought anything was missing from the resolution to that episode. I never sat and wondered why Riker decided to tell all to Picard--in fact, I was never in doubt that he would do the right thing. And as someone else noted I'm not sure what Riker and Troi learned from the events depicted in the episode that helped him with the Pegasus. Berman called it a Valentine to the fans. I'm not a Berman hater, but I'm sorry, that was just about the worse Valentine I ever got
Berman also admitted years after the fact that too many people thought the episode was shit for all of them to be wrong.
The truth was that both Berman and Braga genuinely thought it was a good episode at the time and a good sendoff for the series and Star Trek as a whole. If anything, UPN was more to blame about why the episode was so lousy.
Although I guess it would be better to say the novel reinterpreted the events seen in TATV as noted in Memory Alpha. The novel never says Riker and Troi didn't view the holoprogram as seen in TATV, that all happened as seen on screen. What was changed was that what they were viewing was not historically accurate and the record was manipulated by Section 31.
The novel has a framing story featuring Jake Sisko and Nog reviewing the true record of the events as they actually occurred.
The novel has a framing story featuring Jake Sisko and Nog reviewing the true record of the events as they actually occurred.
Yeah, I was just reading the Memory Alpha article on the episode and yes, even Berman admitted he wouldn't have done it again if he could go back (though he'd have to be a moron to say otherwise). I always found Braga to be more willing to admit his screw ups. I know some fans like to hate on Braga but I never could because he at least was always honest with himself. If something sucked, he'd admit it (i.e. Threshold, which he'll freely admit was not his finest hour).
The another reason why I am thinking that Mangels & Martin did not understand the fans reaction to TATV. They are repeating the same schema:
1-Two another popular franchise personalities present the story of ENT
2-Same as TATV at the last book Martin decided how the protagonist end up at next 10-20 years.
Whatever, if the TATV would be mid season episode, it would be the heavy burden for the writers who would write the next episode to clean up all the mess. Or maybe they would ignore it..As me..
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A novel is a much different animal then a series finale though. And this novel set up all the ones that followed. This was the only one that featured a framing story, and I think they needed to do that here to reinterpret the final episode. It would have to be a later story then the Pegasus, and they put it far enough in the future that it didn't hamper the relaunches of the other series.
It was probably the only way to reinterpret TATV without outright contradicting what was seen on screen, something novels usually are forbidden to do. This way they could say Riker and Troi reviewed the events of TATV as they knew it then, it was only much later that we find out that history was recorded inaccurately. Well, other than leaving the story intact, but there was enough dislike of this episode that I think they wanted to fix it as best they could. Plus if they wanted to do Romulan War books like they did, it freed them up from having to wrap it up to be consistent with TATV. Now any differences can be attributed to the altered record by Section 31.
It was probably the only way to reinterpret TATV without outright contradicting what was seen on screen, something novels usually are forbidden to do. This way they could say Riker and Troi reviewed the events of TATV as they knew it then, it was only much later that we find out that history was recorded inaccurately. Well, other than leaving the story intact, but there was enough dislike of this episode that I think they wanted to fix it as best they could. Plus if they wanted to do Romulan War books like they did, it freed them up from having to wrap it up to be consistent with TATV. Now any differences can be attributed to the altered record by Section 31.
Yeah, that would have been a nice touch for a middle of the season episode. Even have a throwaway line about Tuvok or Picard would have been nice. Yeah, having Riker and Troi in the middle of season episode is "stunt casting" but I'm a sucker for it!!! LOL
I would be totally agree with you, if TATV not soo failed as a series finale. I have to confess, I was never a Star Trek novel reader and I found the people who reads excessively Trek novels a little bit too much "Trekkie" for my taste.. until TATV. (If TATV would be a mid season episode, I would never begin with the reading novels. ""It proves even the most disagreeable stories have somehellip; positive attributes.")
I do not talk about motivation of another readers, but if TGTMD did not try to fix the disaster of TATV, why should I read it and following novels? My expectation was not high literature but solid sci-fi with subtle touch of fan service , kind of rectification for mistreatment of Trip, Shran and T'Pol characters at TATV . I think as a fan/ reader/ consumer it is not too much to expect from experienced authors like Mangels & Martin find a smart solution without mixing any other franchise characters like TATV did before. Using Section 31? Why not, but Nog & Jake? Why?
Rushing with the Romulan Wars, but telling the fate of protagonists after 20 years? Why? It only limits the possibilities of Rise of Federation novel series. Although, I believe if we could get fifth season, producers would bring Trip back. It was not even first dead of Trip
Trip being killed off is I think the main reason fans hate it (aside from some really disliking Troi) but even if that hadn't happened it would have still been too-bizarre, or even more bizarre and unpopular, for a random episode to flash-forward and reveal how things ended, take away surprises from the rest of the season/series, including that Trip and T'Pol didn't get back together, no one got promoted, the characters and relationships in general seem to have not significantly changed in the next six years.
The basic premise, as a non-finale, was fine. Execution was terrible.
Even if you accept the decision to kill Trip, he was killed in a stupid way.
Even if you accept the decision to kill Trip, he was killed in a stupid way.
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