TMP: Robert Wise's 1980/81 Edit Ideas VS. DE Version

[Christopher]

That's the thing, there were going to be so many beauty shots of the ship AFTER that scene anyway, so that's why I don't feel it would have been such a loss to trim some parts of the approach.

It's not about the quantity of shots, it's about the immersiveness and impact of that one experience. Like I said, it felt like actually being there, getting to take a tour of the Enterprise as big as life. It wouldn't have felt as real if it were chopped up into smaller pieces. The thing is, you're approaching it as one VFX sequence out of hundreds that you've seen, but for us in 1979 in theaters, it was one of a kind.

As far as shuttles approaching hero ships go, I actually like ST09's better, and I'm not even a fan of that film. Plenty of beauty shots and a souring score. I criticize Abrams' films for always feeling like they were rushing things way too much out of fear of boring audiences, but I thought that moment was paced well.

Yes, they gave it the time it needed, within the context of today's faster-paced movies.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I don't see how cutting out a minute and thirty seconds would take away from the experience of seeing the ship for the first time, because there's already so much footage of it in that sequence alone, but then again I wasn't around for 1979. Which makes TMP stand out even more as an oddity compared to what came out before and after. It wanted to be a film like 2001, and nothing else in Trek has ever tried that again on that level because filmmakers knew Trek doesn't work as a movie like 2001. Heck, Trek barely even works as a movie series when accounting most of the films. At least IMO.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well, it's so much more common today. For those of us who saw it in theaters back in 1979, seeing our beloved Enterprise on a huge screen and in such detail and realism for the first time ever, getting to soar around it with a moving camera and see it from every angle and come up really close to its hull and see detail down to the individual plates... man, that was world-changing. I mean, sure, there had been a couple of earlier starship FX sequences that were visually revolutionary -- the Star Destroyer opening of Star Wars, the Mothership in Close Encounters -- but those were just ships. The Enterprise was a character. The Enterprise was home. And we'd never gotten to tour it so immersively, to feel like it was really there waiting for us to step aboard it. Six minutes of that hardly felt like enough.

Please don't presume to speak for those of us who saw TMP in theaters back in 1979. The tediously slow pacing of the film was a flaw that was quite evident at the time on first viewing. As nice as the starship porn was, the pacing problem was evident in the drydock, and despite there being really nice VFX to look at it only got worse as the movie wore on.

 

[Pauln6]

I certainly wasn't bored the first time I watched it but my brother always fast forwarded the flyby on subsequent viewings! I'm quite happy to sit through it even today although the V'Ger flyover feels a bit indulgent. The film needed more character moments more than it needed less Enterprise porn.

 

[David cgc]

Re the walkway formation, they probably would have just used the same moire slot gags they used elsewhere in the V'ger finale to show the paths assembling. Yeah, shooting animation on twos was just dumb, and shows a lack of understanding of what they were working on. They confused the standard for cartoon animation with VFX animation, the latter almost invariably being shot on ones.

I'm not sure how much I can generalize this, but my own computer animation curriculum had a lot of emphasis on drawing and traditional cartoon animation, with a specific emphasis on characterization. I imagine that has as much to do with the generation of people who'd moved into teaching by that point as anything else, but if the people at FI who weren't the self-taught pioneers had anything like the education I did, they'd know a lot more about animating on twos and fours than about moire-pattern slot gags. Never mind the fact that research on one movie's troubled production was a lot harder to come by almost twenty years ago, and even now there's a lot of stuff that's fairly vauge or handwavey in what's public that'd make it challenging to recreate it. I couldn't recreate, say, the engineering reactor lighting rig based on what's in Return to Tomorrow, and I'd love to try.

The Earth DOES look off in the DE. They probably used photos of the Earth rather than original artwork as was used back in 1979.

It was almost certainly the same Earth model FI would've used for everything else, based on modern satellite photography. All bright blues and greens and whites. Most of the TMP Earth shots (and all of the ones kept in the DE) were very dark with a strong blue cast over the land and clouds.

I've got photos of the artwork of the Earth from when V'ger goes poof, and it's a flat down-looking painting of islands on water that was projected onto a hemisphere painted white. (A separate transparency of clouds was photographed the same way.) Et voila...

Sweet! There is a world where I would've driven myself nuts trying to figure out what landmasses that shot corresponded to.

 

[Damian]

I don't know. I loved the Enterprise flyover in ST:TMP. The Enterprise was always every bit a character as the crew. How many people mourned it's death in TSFS for that reason. I think Wise got that right. The scene in Star Trek (2009) that showed the Enterprise in orbit for the first time was a nod to that (they have admitted as such). Hell, even Nicholas Meyer reused some of those scenes because they were beautiful shots. Yes, it was much shorter, but even he allowed the Enterprise a moment to be admired.

Let's not forget this was the first time anyone was seeing the Enterprise after it's refit. It's different now that we've all seen it numerous times. But that was the first time and rushing through the scene would have been a travesty.

TMP remains my personal favorite of the series. A bit unusual I'll admit, I'm not aware of anyone who shares my feeling. Partly because it felt like the most pure Star Trek film IMHO. The villain was not a villain in the truest sense of the word. This ship was pristine. It was sci-fi at it's best. That doesn't mean it's a perfect film. I too thought there were some pacing issues (things which the director's cut fixed to a great degree I thought).

And this is the film that made me a Trekkie. I had already seen TWOK and TSFS. I thought they were ok but didn't think much of them. I happened to see TMP for rent at a video store and figured since I saw the 2nd and 3rd film, might as well see the first. At first I was a bit confused because I didn't realize TWOK was not a traditional sequel (that it didn't continue any plot points from TMP). But once I saw the film I was hooked. I started watching the original series and TVH came out soon after.

 

[Christopher]

I don't see how cutting out a minute and thirty seconds would take away from the experience of seeing the ship for the first time

I've already said I'd be okay with trimming that really long travel pod turnaround shot. I'm not trying to negotiate its running length. I'm just trying to explain why that sequence was more than just "starship porn" to viewers back then. Or rather, it's totally starship porn, but it was special because of which starship it was and how revelatory it was, and so the indulgence was not as unjustified as it seems to viewers in this day and age when that kind of spectacle is commonplace and devalued. It's exactly as Damian said -- we're all so used to seeing the refit for the past four decades that it's hard to imagine how different it was to see that gorgeous ship for the first time.

Besides, films were often slower-paced and more deliberate back then. Directors were more willing to take their time and let the audience savor a moment rather than rushing on to the next thing. (And why not, really? They paid to be there. They're a captive audience. I've never understood why modern filmmakers feel so rushed.)

And I realized a while back that TMP has something in common with another Robert Wise film: West Side Story. Both films rely heavily on lengthy sequences driven by music and visuals with a minimum of dialogue.

Which makes TMP stand out even more as an oddity compared to what came out before and after. It wanted to be a film like 2001, and nothing else in Trek has ever tried that again on that level because filmmakers knew Trek doesn't work as a movie like 2001. Heck, Trek barely even works as a movie series when accounting most of the films. At least IMO.

I don't think that's quite fair. 2001 was far from the only science fiction film in the '60s and '70s that was in the vein of a deliberate, thoughtful, intellectual film rather than the kind of action-adventure spectacle that Star Wars pioneered. There was Robert Wise's earlier SF film The Andromeda Strain, whose stylistic precedents for TMP are strong and clear. There was Silent Running. There was The Illustrated Man. There was Soylent Green. Even Planet of the Apes was kind of a highbrow film series in its slightly cheesy way, a dystopian satire on the follies of human nature and an allegory for racism, fundamentalism, and class warfare. And it's not like they stopped making films in that vein after Star Wars came out -- see Blade Runner, for example. TMP wasn't just "trying to be 2001"; it was just trying to be a smart, adult science fiction movie of the sort that was common in the previous decade. And that was a natural thing for Star Trek to do, because TOS itself was the first adult-oriented non-anthology science fiction drama. Sure, it had plenty of gratuitous action under network pressure, but there was plenty about it that was a lot more intelligent and sophisticated and thought-provoking than almost anything else in SFTV of the time. So TMP chose to emphasize that side of what TOS was, the adult and thoughtful side, and so they got a director who had experience in adult SF and had him do the same kind of film. Then TWOK came along and chose to emphasize the other side, the more action-driven side.

 

[Maurice]

I'm not sure how much I can generalize this, but my own computer animation curriculum had a lot of emphasis on drawing and traditional cartoon animation, with a specific emphasis on characterization. I imagine that has as much to do with the generation of people who'd moved into teaching by that point as anything else, but if the people at FI who weren't the self-taught pioneers had anything like the education I did, they'd know a lot more about animating on twos and fours than about moire-pattern slot gags. Never mind the fact that research on one movie's troubled production was a lot harder to come by almost twenty years ago, and even now there's a lot of stuff that's fairly vauge or handwavey in what's public that'd make it challenging to recreate it. I couldn't recreate, say, the engineering reactor lighting rig based on what's in Return to Tomorrow, and I'd love to try.

My point was simply that a) they didn't understand that you don't do on-twos in VFX—something that's obvious to anyone who's frame-by-framed through almost any VFX animation (homework, again), and b) that in 79 they'd probably have done something like the moire thing because it gave you a lot for bang for fairly minimal effort.

I've had a big collection of TMP materials since the time the DE was in the works. It's telling that the DE makers never consulted people like Andy Probert ("No one ever asked me.") and instead did a lot of guesswork that one or two consultants would have set them straight on immediately.

C'est la vie.

 

[Smellmet]

TMP remains my personal favorite of the series. A bit unusual I'll admit, I'm not aware of anyone who shares my feeling.

There's plenty of people on this forum who share your feelings on TMP. I'm one of them. It's my joint-favourite Trek film alongside TWOK.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

TMP is my favorite Trek film, warts and all. That doesn't make me blind to the numerous issues it has.

 

[Damian]

TMP is my favorite Trek film, warts and all. That doesn't make me blind to the numerous issues it has.

I don't disagree. I loved TMP even when all I had was the VHS-Extended Version. The DE was even better because they went in and fixed some of the pacing issues (which was even more important then fixing a couple Effects shots IMO). Now I agree with some that maybe they cut a few bits of dialogue that could have been left in. But overall it improved what I already thought was a great movie. I was glad they fixed the 82 AU line from the original film to say a much more reasonable 2 AU (which is still huge beyond belief--though when you see the Enterprise fly over V'Ger's vessel it does give it credence, it is HUGE, but 82 AU, wouldn't that be half the solar system?).

But yes, it's not perfect. I loved the V'ger flyby on the one hand but it does look a bit ridiculous that the crew is staring dumbfounded at the screen for much of the time (though I've been a bit forgiving--I figured maybe that it was so unlike anything they've ever seen that they really were dumbfounded for a few moments, plus I guess there really wasn't much that they could do). But at the same time I was even mesmerized by some of the effects work and I think that was helped by Goldsmith's score. So while it may stretch out a bit long, I'm not sure what I'd cut out.

Some of the characterizations were a bit off too. Particularly Shatner, who was uncharacteristically subdued. Now that might sound like a good thing, but I thought he was much better in TWOK, where his personality came out a bit more without going off the deep end like I thought he did in TFF, TUC and Generations. I'd almost say Nimoy too, but one of the themes of the film was Spock finding what he needed (just like V'Ger). That he was empty to start but by the end of the film he was much more like the Spock we've come to know. McCoy was spot on though--back to his irascible self, you can always depend on DeForrest Kelley.

And the story itself was basically an extended knock off of The Changeling and to a lesser extent the Doomsday Machine. Or at least it started from that angle but took it in a different direction I thought. After all V'Ger wasn't destroyed/

Besides, films were often slower-paced and more deliberate back then. Directors were more willing to take their time and let the audience savor a moment rather than rushing on to the next thing. (And why not, really? They paid to be there. They're a captive audience. I've never understood why modern filmmakers feel so rushed.)

And I realized a while back that TMP has something in common with another Robert Wise film: West Side Story. Both films rely heavily on lengthy sequences driven by music and visuals with a minimum of dialogue.

That's something I always liked about Stanley Kubrick films, and the more recent Paul Thomas Anderson films. They are very meticulous about their work and they are almost every bit as important as the actors in the film. And I'm a huge Hitchcock fan for the same reason (one reason I have almost no respect for Academy Awards is the man never won Best Director--literally the best director to ever walk this Earth never won one for Best Director, you think, Rear Window, North by Northwest, Notorious, Saboteur, Psycho, The Birds, To Catch a Thief.....need I go on). Robert Wise was definitely one of those sorts of directors with his own distinct styles.

So TMP chose to emphasize that side of what TOS was, the adult and thoughtful side, and so they got a director who had experience in adult SF and had him do the same kind of film. Then TWOK came along and chose to emphasize the other side, the more action-driven side.

I think when you get down to it that's probably why TMP is my favorite Trek film, beyond being the movie to bring me into the fold. That it was a thoughtful science fiction film without a standard villain. When you think about it, it was the only Star Trek film to really get a big movie budget until Star Trek (2009). I think that allowed them to go deep into the sci-fi element. And TWOK picked it up from the other end, which is true. I loved TWOK too, but it doesn't capture the sci-fi element like TMP does. I can see why TWOK is usually considered more popular (and I know a lot of people who think that was the best Star Trek film). It has more action and it's more exciting. Action films are great and TWOK is a fun, entertaining film to watch. But it's not really "intelligent" in the way TMP was.

In a way it's probably why I loved Alien more than Aliens. They were both great films but they were more or less different genres (other than sharing a basic sci-fi plot). Aliens was much more an action film, like TWOK, and it was a fun, intense picture. But Alien was more sci-fi, and more horror too. Interesting also is the music composers were the same too, Goldsmith for Alien and Horner for Aliens, not sure if that had anything to do with it, but I found the parallel interesting.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I really don't like any of the changes made for the DE.

 

[Christopher]

I was glad they fixed the 82 AU line from the original film to say a much more reasonable 2 AU (which is still huge beyond belief--though when you see the Enterprise fly over V'Ger's vessel it does give it credence, it is HUGE, but 82 AU, wouldn't that be half the solar system?).

It would be pretty much the whole Solar System out to the orbit of Pluto/midpoint of the Kuiper Belt. Although what percentage of the Solar System that constitutes depends on how you define it, since we're discovering a lot more stuff on the outer fringes of the system, possibly even an undiscovered new planet in the scattered disk.

Some of the characterizations were a bit off too. Particularly Shatner, who was uncharacteristically subdued. Now that might sound like a good thing, but I thought he was much better in TWOK, where his personality came out a bit more without going off the deep end like I thought he did in TFF, TUC and Generations. I'd almost say Nimoy too, but one of the themes of the film was Spock finding what he needed (just like V'Ger). That he was empty to start but by the end of the film he was much more like the Spock we've come to know. McCoy was spot on though--back to his irascible self, you can always depend on DeForrest Kelley.

The tricky thing about TMP is that the characters are supposed to be out of character. They've lost something from their separation and need to be reunited to find it again. So they don't really get back to their old selves (or something better, in Spock's case) until the final act of the film. Which does work in-story, but I understand why it makes it hard for many fans to relate to the characters.

And the story itself was basically an extended knock off of The Changeling and to a lesser extent the Doomsday Machine.

It also bears a startling resemblance to the animated episode "One of Our Planets is Missing." The Enterprise flies into a vast cosmic cloud that's coming to destroy a populated planet, it discovers the cloud is a sentient entity, it reaches the entity's brain complex and rigs the ship's self-destruct to kill it, but Spock's mental contact with it enables them to communicate and save the planet. I used to assume Alan Dean Foster used that episode (which he novelized) as an inspiration for "In Thy Image," his pilot script that became TMP, but when I finally read that script, I saw the elements that resembled the TAS episode weren't there. They were added in later drafts by Harold Livingston et al. So it must've been a coincidence.

And TWOK picked it up from the other end, which is true. I loved TWOK too, but it doesn't capture the sci-fi element like TMP does. I can see why TWOK is usually considered more popular (and I know a lot of people who think that was the best Star Trek film). It has more action and it's more exciting. Action films are great and TWOK is a fun, entertaining film to watch.

I actually find TWOK's "action" sequences rather boring. They're astonishingly slow-paced and sluggish. The ships wallow past each other like hippos in mud. There are shots where Kirk and Khan are given urgent information and just sit there staring dumbly for 10 seconds before reacting. I think the pacing is terrible and I don't get why people like it. Also, TWOK's action is too violent and way, way too bloodsoaked for me.

But it's not really "intelligent" in the way TMP was.

TWOK is really very, very dumb. Its plot doesn't make one damn bit of sense.

In a way it's probably why I loved Alien more than Aliens. They were both great films but they were more or less different genres (other than sharing a basic sci-fi plot). Aliens was much more an action film, like TWOK, and it was a fun, intense picture. But Alien was more sci-fi, and more horror too. Interesting also is the music composers were the same too, Goldsmith for Alien and Horner for Aliens, not sure if that had anything to do with it, but I found the parallel interesting.

For me, it does. Music can have a major impact on the enjoyability of the film, and I do tend to be fond of films with Jerry Goldsmith scores more than I might otherwise be. (Although there are some cases where I love the score and hate the film. Goldsmith's Rambo score is the ultimate example. I discovered it when the Rambo cartoon series -- yes, really -- drew most of its music from the scores of the first two Rambo movies, and the Rambo soundtrack album became one of my all-time favorites. The only reason I ever even watched the movies was because I wanted to hear the music in its original context. But while First Blood had some merits, Rambo: First Blood Part 2 didn't really have anything going for it except the music. I still love that score, though.)

 

[Damian]

It would be pretty much the whole Solar System out to the orbit of Pluto/midpoint of the Kuiper Belt. Although what percentage of the Solar System that constitutes depends on how you define it, since we're discovering a lot more stuff on the outer fringes of the system, possibly even an undiscovered new planet in the scattered disk

When I first saw the movie I didn't think much about it...until I found out what an AU was. It was a little oversight I was glad they corrected in the DE.

 

[Damian]

I actually find TWOK's "action" sequences rather boring. They're astonishingly slow-paced and sluggish. The ships wallow past each other like hippos in mud. There are shots where Kirk and Khan are given urgent information and just sit there staring dumbly for 10 seconds before reacting. I think the pacing is terrible and I don't get why people like it. Also, TWOK's action is too violent and way, way too bloodsoaked for me.

I sort of liked some of the suspense, esp. the Battle of the Mutara Nebula. Taking away their ability to use the computers to target, or even see clearly was an interesting element. I thought there were a number of good character moments as well in TWOK. I can see where Khan's single-mindedness could be questionable, but I had always figured the death of his wife was the last straw, that all he suffered on the planet and that was what finally pushed him over the edge, and after that nothing else mattered, not his own life or that of his crew (except maybe Joaquin). Sort of Ahab in space. It doesn't make real world sense, but I gave it some lee-way since it was fiction. However other plot holes are questionable and if you put too much thought into TWOK it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I guess when it comes to TWOK, because it's an action film, my expectations are a bit different. It's not intelligent sci-fi like TMP, and not really meant to be taken that way. TWOK is a movie that to really enjoy it you sort of have to accept what they give you without putting too much thought into it or it starts falling apart. But I liked some of the character moments, the Spock death scene and the aftermath was handled pretty well I thought also. And I keep coming back to Montalban, but for all the character flaws, he did make an excellent insane, revenge crazed villain.

I prefer TMP because it requires some thought and intelligence. TWOK is more a popcorn flick. More thoughtful then some of the movies out today, but not a movie that requires a lot of contemplation. Ironic in a way because TWOK had a much greater effect and consequences in the Star Trek universe than TMP.

 

[Pauln6]

TMP, Conan the Barbarian, the Black Hole, Excalibur, Watchmen, and TWoK are elevated massively by great scores. The whole is definitely greater than the sum of the parts thanks to the music .

 

[Christopher]

Sure, TWOK is an action film. I'm saying I don't agree with the consensus that its action is well-done or fast-paced. As I said, I think its pacing is terrible and sluggish, and I'm saying that as someone who likes TMP.

 

[Damian]

TMP, Conan the Barbarian, the Black Hole, Excalibur, Watchmen, and TWoK are elevated massively by great scores. The whole is definitely greater than the sum of the parts thanks to the music .

Yeah, that's very true. I'm more a Goldsmith fan, but Horner does an excellent job and his theme does evoke that nautical feel Meyer was looking for. Most of the themes for the films were good I thought. I wasn't a huge fan of Leonard Rosenman's score for TVH, but it does have the correct feel for the film so I go with it. Eidelmann's score for TUC was excellent also. Perhaps my least favorite was probably McCarthy's score for Generations. I wish they had gotten Goldsmith for that one as well. McCarthy's added to that sense that Generations could have easily been an episode of the TV series (in fact, I remember hearing it in some episodes of Voyager). It had moments where you thought it would break out, but it never quite got there for me.

Sure, TWOK is an action film. I'm saying I don't agree with the consensus that its action is well-done or fast-paced. As I said, I think its pacing is terrible and sluggish, and I'm saying that as someone who likes TMP.

I get what you're saying. I guess what it comes down to is just a difference in opinion more than anything on how well it was executed. I was just explaining some of the things I liked in TWOK and contrasting it with TMP.

 

[Christopher]

Perhaps my least favorite was probably McCarthy's score for Generations.

Oh, I quite liked it. I've always liked McCarthy's music, and it was great to hear what he could do with a larger, movie-sized orchestra and with the freedom to develop actual leitmotifs rather than being limited to generic wallpaper scoring like he was on the shows. McCarthy does really good leitmotifs and melodic themes, so it's a shame that the shows didn't let him make use of that part of his skill set after the first few seasons.

 

[Maurice]

The AU thing was not an "oversight". 82 was intentional. Changing it was a "fix" that accomplished nothing except change the original intent. There's a deleted line where Spock mentions V'ger has a field greater than Earth's sun, hence a "powerfield" so enormous (think how far out the heliopause is). So another change to the original intent for no good reason except it seemed more reasonable to some fanboys on the project.