Spoilers Avengers: Infinity War grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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Avengers: Infinity War
A
This is it, 10 years and eighteen movies it's all been building to this,
Was it worth it?
Eh. Maybe.
The movie is good and maintains Marvel's mostly flawless track-record when it comes to these movies and does a decent job of balancing a lot of characters but a little less good in balancing the story. In short, in sort of feels like there's a movie missing somewhere.
What I want to talk about I can't get into without spoilers, so I'll make a spoiler-coded section below. But you likely already know if you're going to see this or not or if you want to see it, so anything I say isn't going to matter. If you liked any of the other Marvel movies you'll like this one. There's good action balanced with good humor and even though it's bloated with characters we get some good moments with all of them.
Thanos as a villain is pretty good, though I'd still say Killmonger (Black Panther) and Loki (Thor, Avengers) are the better ones, here Thanos is good and a little more "complex" than most of the other stock villains in the other movies but there's also large parts of him that doesn't make sense or add up, maybe stuff set to be explored in the sequel.
So here it goes:
A
This is it, 10 years and eighteen movies it's all been building to this,
Was it worth it?
Eh. Maybe.
The movie is good and maintains Marvel's mostly flawless track-record when it comes to these movies and does a decent job of balancing a lot of characters but a little less good in balancing the story. In short, in sort of feels like there's a movie missing somewhere.
What I want to talk about I can't get into without spoilers, so I'll make a spoiler-coded section below. But you likely already know if you're going to see this or not or if you want to see it, so anything I say isn't going to matter. If you liked any of the other Marvel movies you'll like this one. There's good action balanced with good humor and even though it's bloated with characters we get some good moments with all of them.
Thanos as a villain is pretty good, though I'd still say Killmonger (Black Panther) and Loki (Thor, Avengers) are the better ones, here Thanos is good and a little more "complex" than most of the other stock villains in the other movies but there's also large parts of him that doesn't make sense or add up, maybe stuff set to be explored in the sequel.
So here it goes:
There's a reset button in our future, a big one. See, the problem with building up this kind of universe and making it known years out that sequels for characters are on the way it sort of takes the punch out of apparently killing them off. Some kind of reset button was almost a foregone conclusion but when we're shown characters like Spider-Man, Dr. Strange and Black Panther "dying" it sort of makes that reset button down the road obvious.
That's probably my biggest problem with this movie, it's hard to be emotional about what happened when you know what's coming. You may not know how it is coming but it is there.
Much of this movie also feels like Avengers: Side Quest as our heroes are broken up to separated groups each doing their own thing, and most side-questy of all is the stuff with Thor. There's one group in Wakanda trying to protect Vision, there's another group on a planet bizarrely named after a Saturnian moon hoping to fight Thanos, Thor's trying to get a new weapon, Thanos is running around trying to collect the stones and the various groups never come together. It feels a bit scattered.
An organized scattered, but scattered.
Thanos is also hard to get a grasp on, he's given a bit more dimension here as we're shown more of his motivations (as opposed to just sitting in his chair wanting to be evil once his henchmen do things for him) and he's one of the villains whose evil intentions has an aire of "nobility" to them. He's sort of like Samuel L. Jackson's character in the first Kingsman movie, he wants to wipe out half the universe's population in order to maintain sustainability after overpopulation ruined his home planet. Afterwards he wants to.... Just sit and relax?
Not knowing much of the comics, but I thought Thanos was evil and wanted to kill for the sake of killing and to impress a girl (Death.) Here he thinks he's doing the right thing. Which, makes him a bit more complex but also sort of makes him a little less threatening I suppose.
I don't know, there's a lot to think over and its hard to judge too much sense, well, we've only seen half of this story. Right now it feels like we've been building up to a peak climax and, well, we didn't quite get there. Where we got was good, I just feel like we were aiming higher.
That's probably my biggest problem with this movie, it's hard to be emotional about what happened when you know what's coming. You may not know how it is coming but it is there.
Much of this movie also feels like Avengers: Side Quest as our heroes are broken up to separated groups each doing their own thing, and most side-questy of all is the stuff with Thor. There's one group in Wakanda trying to protect Vision, there's another group on a planet bizarrely named after a Saturnian moon hoping to fight Thanos, Thor's trying to get a new weapon, Thanos is running around trying to collect the stones and the various groups never come together. It feels a bit scattered.
An organized scattered, but scattered.
Thanos is also hard to get a grasp on, he's given a bit more dimension here as we're shown more of his motivations (as opposed to just sitting in his chair wanting to be evil once his henchmen do things for him) and he's one of the villains whose evil intentions has an aire of "nobility" to them. He's sort of like Samuel L. Jackson's character in the first Kingsman movie, he wants to wipe out half the universe's population in order to maintain sustainability after overpopulation ruined his home planet. Afterwards he wants to.... Just sit and relax?
Not knowing much of the comics, but I thought Thanos was evil and wanted to kill for the sake of killing and to impress a girl (Death.) Here he thinks he's doing the right thing. Which, makes him a bit more complex but also sort of makes him a little less threatening I suppose.
I don't know, there's a lot to think over and its hard to judge too much sense, well, we've only seen half of this story. Right now it feels like we've been building up to a peak climax and, well, we didn't quite get there. Where we got was good, I just feel like we were aiming higher.
Not so bizarre because in the comics it is the Saturnian moon.
Ross Marquand.
My partner knows next to nothing about the MCU movies, but she enjoyed IW, while having the same reaction of it being sad. She's still quoting it today after almost 24 hours, Hulk's "Nooo!"
Thanks
Given that the moon is named after the mythological Titans and there's already a fairly major precedent for some human myths having alien origins, I think it's safe to say that in this case the Saturnian moon is actually named after Thanos's people and/or homeworld, not the other way around.
Touché! Either way, it's the same physical moon and not so bizarrely named.Given that the moon is named after the mythological Titans and there's already a fairly major precedent for some human myths having alien origins, I think it's safe to say that in this case the Saturnian moon is actually named after Thanos's people and/or homeworld, not the other way around.
A-
Spoilers beware, skip if you haven't seen the movie (but then again why go into the movies discussion thread after it's released?)
Awesome movie with the few expected weaknesses.
First the weak points:
- A movie on this scale, with so many primary actors/characters, is fated to not be able to give each characters the same amount of attention as others. Captain America appears, has some cool fight scenes and issues some orders, that's it.
The same for Bucky Barnes, T'Challa, Natasha etc. Basically everyone who was not part of one of the main teams (Thor/Guardians and Team Iron Man) got less screen time and it's ok, they had to make a cut somewhere
- Where and how the hell did Banner get access to the Hulkbuster armor and why did Hulk not want to appear (i assume because Thanos is the only one who actually beat him fair and square and knocked him out, however the reason was never given in the movie)
- Why were the teams actually even able to fight Thanos after he got the first stone, much less all the other ones? In Guardians we see a Celestial wipe out an entire world with just one stone (granted, it's a Celestial but still) so Thanos shouldn't even need to fight but could just erase them. The fight Guardians vs. Thanos on his ship shows this.. Drax and Mantis attack and Thanos simply disassembles them without bothering to even throw a punch (yet they get reassembled when he leaves? Why?)
- Thanos wins in the end and we see several heroes vanish/die but for some we simply know they will come back somehow.. Black Panther and Spiderman being the most obvious answers since they are the newest and most successful newwer characters around.
On to the good stuff:
- Thor.. god damn! His movies are the weakest of all the Marvel movies (yet still better than DC's
) and Thor Ragnarok was an insult to the character. Norse mythology is so utterly badass and what Marvel did to it is pure waste. Anyway.. in this movie Thor is King. His storyline, seeing Loki killed, half his people killed and on top of it Heimdall too. He is in tremendous pain and tries to cover it up (yet Rocket sees through it) but the way he gets his new weapon Storm Breaker (apparently even more powerful than Mjolnir) is just badass and funny at the same time (and Peter Dinklage as a "Dwarf" is awesome too).
When we see him in action the first time with Stormbreaker it was mindblowing and if there ever was doubt who the heavy hitter in the Avengers is should have his answer here.
- Team Iron Man (and later on with the Guardians)
Tony Stark is so friggin' awesome.. again. I'm utterly convinced that without Robert Downey Jr. / Tony Stark Marvel wouldn't have these massive hits that they had. Stark is the template for all Marvel movie characters, a human core at the center of a hero he was meant to be and everything that came after was built on that foundation. All movies tend to work around the Iron Man 1 template.. some humor, a relatable character with an interesting backstory and tons of brilliantly shot action.
Downey delivers it again in Infinity War.. being thrust into the biggest battle of his life, improvising at every corner and desperately trying to steer away from the seemingly inevitable conclusion. If these movies should have the emotional impact they deserve and be the hammerblow Stark needs to die. period. When Stark got stabbed on Titan the movie theater went dead silent so popular is the character and nobody wanted him to die.
Peter Parker in the Iron Spider Suit. another genius switch and while i hated it in the comics it absolutely works in the movie with all the heavy action going on (yet Parker still remaining who he is).. it was gut wrenching to see him be one of the 50% chosen to die/vanish but since we know Spiderman 2 is coming this was one of the inherent flaws of the movie.
Dr. Strange proves he is one of the strongest characters.. not only due to his magical powers but due to his ability to think outside the box and do what is necessary to win in the end even if it means to lose a battle. Strange is all about the big picture so it seemed pretty obvious that once Strange mentioned that he only saw one future where the Avengers win in the end even handing over the Time Stone had to be done so events would unfold that would ultimately defeat Thanos.
The Guardians were the true star for me in the movie.. the humor associated with them just poured all over Infinity War and whenever they were on screen the funny was amped up 100%. This is the reason why Gamorra's death hit so hard and unexpected and was one of the high points of the movie because it elevated Thanos and "humanized" him.. for whatever reason he loved his adopted daughter yet his mission was still stronger. Thanos crying and Gamorra realizing why was a powerful moment that rivaled Quill actually trying to fulfill his oath to Gamorra.
Fantastic movie and now i'm curious how Thanos will be beaten and which hero will actually stay dead after Infinity War concludes.
Spoilers beware, skip if you haven't seen the movie (but then again why go into the movies discussion thread after it's released?)
Awesome movie with the few expected weaknesses.
First the weak points:
- A movie on this scale, with so many primary actors/characters, is fated to not be able to give each characters the same amount of attention as others. Captain America appears, has some cool fight scenes and issues some orders, that's it.
The same for Bucky Barnes, T'Challa, Natasha etc. Basically everyone who was not part of one of the main teams (Thor/Guardians and Team Iron Man) got less screen time and it's ok, they had to make a cut somewhere
- Where and how the hell did Banner get access to the Hulkbuster armor and why did Hulk not want to appear (i assume because Thanos is the only one who actually beat him fair and square and knocked him out, however the reason was never given in the movie)
- Why were the teams actually even able to fight Thanos after he got the first stone, much less all the other ones? In Guardians we see a Celestial wipe out an entire world with just one stone (granted, it's a Celestial but still) so Thanos shouldn't even need to fight but could just erase them. The fight Guardians vs. Thanos on his ship shows this.. Drax and Mantis attack and Thanos simply disassembles them without bothering to even throw a punch (yet they get reassembled when he leaves? Why?)
- Thanos wins in the end and we see several heroes vanish/die but for some we simply know they will come back somehow.. Black Panther and Spiderman being the most obvious answers since they are the newest and most successful newwer characters around.
On to the good stuff:
- Thor.. god damn! His movies are the weakest of all the Marvel movies (yet still better than DC's
) and Thor Ragnarok was an insult to the character. Norse mythology is so utterly badass and what Marvel did to it is pure waste. Anyway.. in this movie Thor is King. His storyline, seeing Loki killed, half his people killed and on top of it Heimdall too. He is in tremendous pain and tries to cover it up (yet Rocket sees through it) but the way he gets his new weapon Storm Breaker (apparently even more powerful than Mjolnir) is just badass and funny at the same time (and Peter Dinklage as a "Dwarf" is awesome too).When we see him in action the first time with Stormbreaker it was mindblowing and if there ever was doubt who the heavy hitter in the Avengers is should have his answer here.
- Team Iron Man (and later on with the Guardians)
Tony Stark is so friggin' awesome.. again. I'm utterly convinced that without Robert Downey Jr. / Tony Stark Marvel wouldn't have these massive hits that they had. Stark is the template for all Marvel movie characters, a human core at the center of a hero he was meant to be and everything that came after was built on that foundation. All movies tend to work around the Iron Man 1 template.. some humor, a relatable character with an interesting backstory and tons of brilliantly shot action.
Downey delivers it again in Infinity War.. being thrust into the biggest battle of his life, improvising at every corner and desperately trying to steer away from the seemingly inevitable conclusion. If these movies should have the emotional impact they deserve and be the hammerblow Stark needs to die. period. When Stark got stabbed on Titan the movie theater went dead silent so popular is the character and nobody wanted him to die.
Peter Parker in the Iron Spider Suit. another genius switch and while i hated it in the comics it absolutely works in the movie with all the heavy action going on (yet Parker still remaining who he is).. it was gut wrenching to see him be one of the 50% chosen to die/vanish but since we know Spiderman 2 is coming this was one of the inherent flaws of the movie.
Dr. Strange proves he is one of the strongest characters.. not only due to his magical powers but due to his ability to think outside the box and do what is necessary to win in the end even if it means to lose a battle. Strange is all about the big picture so it seemed pretty obvious that once Strange mentioned that he only saw one future where the Avengers win in the end even handing over the Time Stone had to be done so events would unfold that would ultimately defeat Thanos.
The Guardians were the true star for me in the movie.. the humor associated with them just poured all over Infinity War and whenever they were on screen the funny was amped up 100%. This is the reason why Gamorra's death hit so hard and unexpected and was one of the high points of the movie because it elevated Thanos and "humanized" him.. for whatever reason he loved his adopted daughter yet his mission was still stronger. Thanos crying and Gamorra realizing why was a powerful moment that rivaled Quill actually trying to fulfill his oath to Gamorra.
Fantastic movie and now i'm curious how Thanos will be beaten and which hero will actually stay dead after Infinity War concludes.
Since my last post, I have more questions:
1. How big is the universe in the Marvel Comics? The reason I ask is that it is implied that all Infinity Stones, after the Big Bang, were dispersed in the early universe, yet they somehow manage to end up in the same galaxy. Shouldn't they be more dispersed than that?
2. The events take place in one day. In one day, Thanos collects five stones. Yet, he has been searching for them for decades and, at the minimum, he has been conquering planets for twenty years at the minimum. If the stones were that easy to find, as they were located in one galaxy, why did he not find them sooner?
1. How big is the universe in the Marvel Comics? The reason I ask is that it is implied that all Infinity Stones, after the Big Bang, were dispersed in the early universe, yet they somehow manage to end up in the same galaxy. Shouldn't they be more dispersed than that?
2. The events take place in one day. In one day, Thanos collects five stones. Yet, he has been searching for them for decades and, at the minimum, he has been conquering planets for twenty years at the minimum. If the stones were that easy to find, as they were located in one galaxy, why did he not find them sooner?
Thanos has an odd set of values. Despite questing for a finger snap that will kill half the sentient beings in the universe, he apparently doesn’t want to kill unnecessarily on the way there, and for the most part he doesn’t have to. Usually he shows up, defeats the heroes who are tryIng to keep a Stone from him, compliments them on their noble effort, and leaves.
He had to kill Gamora to get the Soul Stone. He had to threaten to kill Stark to get the Time Stone, but once he got it he left without further incident. We didn’t see what happened to the Asgardians, but presumably they’re a bunch of bad asses who put up such a fight that Thanos couldn’t defeat them without killing half of them. Or maybe that’s what it took get Loki (or whoever has the Tesseract, Thanos doesn’t necessarily know) to a point where he was willing to surrender it.
Comic book logic. it wouldn't work if writers actually had to take into account the utter vastness of the universe. I don't think anyone ever tried to actually explain why Earth has such a high level of superpowered people and why they often enough have to fight cosmic scale enemies such as Galactus or the Beyonder, it simply is and part of the necessity of comicbook readers to not look too closely (yet the fandom is based on people discussing such issues forever
).
I was also puzzled by how the Hulkbuster appeared, but I guess Tony had it stored at the Avengers headquarters and they brought it with them when they went to Wakanda. That could have been a littler clearer but it's not that important.
As for the Hulk not wanting to come out to play, I think that's something that was deliberately left unclear and will continue to be explored in the next film. I think you're right it had to do with how Hulk lost to Thanos and was feeling inferior.
I think it's a matter of how much Thanos wants to engage in fighting directly. He was like that in the comic mini-series, seeped with arrogance in his superiority even without the Infinity Stones. As for Drax and Mantis, I figured he was using the Reality Stone on them (as he was throughout the whole scene) and couldn't be bothered with actually killing them, so when he left, the effects of the Stone wore off.
I completely agree. Stark has been the core center of the cinematic universe and that all comes down to Downey. It helps that the character has developed wonderful over the years and many appearance. I recommend reading this A.V. Club article about the character's story arc.
Yup, I thought the same thing about why he surrendered the Stone. Saving Tony was just a front for Thanos' sake. Here's hoping his Hail Mary works out (of course it does).
Thanos was biding his time waiting for a moment when they were all exposed and some of the strongest beings in the universe weren't going to be able to stand in his way. Ego is gone, Odin is gone, the Ancient One is gone, all of the stones have revealed themselves. Thanos isn't necessarily some genius strategist, he's just really patient and once everything was ready he had the army, strength and resources he needed to push through any resistance that presented itself.
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The stones wanted to be found.
They'd spent 16 billion years making their way to Earth.
it was time.
Thor said half his people were dead.
Thanos kills half and leaves the rest.
That's his thing.
They'd spent 16 billion years making their way to Earth.
it was time.
Thor said half his people were dead.
Thanos kills half and leaves the rest.
That's his thing.
It sure looked like the Infinity Gauntlet was busted after Thanos pushed the big button. He just left it lying there in Wakanda. I guess it's only good for one use. I wonder if the stones are gone too.
Strange said that there was only one way to win.
Starlord did not cock up the win.
His misstep was part of the plan to win.
Everything is on track for the win.
Starlord did not cock up the win.
His misstep was part of the plan to win.
Everything is on track for the win.