It did have the guts. Most of the time, the reset button wasn't as compelling as what led to its latest usage. VOY did end up being the first casualty of "Trek Burnout", but a number of VOY episodes easily better DS9's clunkers or hold their own against TNG's average fare, or try things TNG couldn't begin to do... and ENT didn't go anywhere compelling until Manny Coto took over, it's the one spinoff that did nothing for me. Even STD feels like it has potential, once they find a path and stick to it. ENT just felt... worn out. Berman's era obviously brought a LOT into the show, but even he and his team ran out of ideas. The number of years he kept things going is impressive regardless, there were fans until the end who loved every moment of it and there's no denying that either.
Jeez, I would hope so. Pretty faint praise though, I have to say. I doubt that there's many (any?) people who would claim that DS9's worst eps are better than VOY's best.
The Chute was an example of episodes that wouldn't happen on TNG(Of which I gave numerous). Pale Moonlight is one of DS9's most highly acclaimed episodes, if not The most highly acclaimed episode. Should I now do a reverse comparison, and find a weaker DS9 episode to compare to a stronger Voyager ep? - Speaking of consequences, what were the consequences for Sisko from the events of Pale Moonlight, after the Pale Moonlight? They got a groovy alliance with the Romulans, but what about Sisko, and that dead Senator, his staff, or the murdered criminal? Were the events of Pale Moonlight, or their effects on the Sisko ever mentioned again? I don't remember, but I don't think so.
It was one episode of 12 (from a possible 172) you mentioned to justify your point that VOY had: So: I'm using an episode you gave me to make these points and using a famous DS9 example as a counterpoint. There are plenty of other DS9 endings with a similar tone. Necessary Evil and Things Past jump immediately to mind. It's kind of impossible for that to happen since Sisko could never openly discuss it and immediately deletes the log. However, In the Pale Moonlight is far less about consequences and more a consequence itself. At this point, the Dominion War has been going on for months, and Starfleet has been losing. This is a running theme throughout season six, with characters mentioning people they've lost and speculating on how far Starfleet could even hold out. In the very first episode we see Sisko mourning the death of a close friend who he'd introduced to the man's wife. Yes, there were fun episodes here and there, but the war and its effects loom large. Sisko is shown to carry an increasingly heavy burden, most particularly during Far Beyond the Stars. This is reinforced at the start of In the Pale Moonlight, when Sisko describes his crew reading the weekly casualty list: "It's become something of a grim ritual around here. Not a week goes by where someone doesn't find the name of a loved one, a friend, or an acquaintance on that damned list." In the Pale Moonlight wouldn't work without that buildup. When Sisko makes that step, the audience is supposed to understand everything he has been through, and that suffering/responsibility lends the issue greater weight. Would Sisko have taken such a course right at the start of the war? I don't think so. In the Pale Moonlight is the direct culmination of almost a year of storytelling, and that's why it's so superb. It's also part of an overriding theme throughout season six. I'll quote Memory Alpha here: "Many episodes in this season focus on moral issues in wartime, especially the hard choice between different calamities such as betrayal of principles, treason, and the deaths of dear or unknown people, e.g.: "Statistical Probabilities": Saving the people from the Dominion vs. granting the people a greater chance of survival "Honor Among Thieves": Letting a friend walk into a trap vs. supporting organized crime "Change of Heart": Probable death of the spouse vs. sure death of a stranger who is important for the mission "Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night": Collaborating with an occupying force and contributing to the oppression of your people to obtain benefits for one's family vs. using one's position to fight for the greater good at the expense of yourself and your family. "In the Pale Moonlight": Engaging in criminal activities to win an ally in the war". Those season themes and issues naturally link to the general themes and issues DS9 sought to explore. Does Sisko ever come right out and talk about his decision? No. It doesn't need to be that blatant.
I don't think a show needs to be darky-dark-dark as though it's something to strive for, it's more about not shying away from heavy topics. And then not acting like everything is back to normal right afterwards. DS9 did sometimes drop that last ball, (such as Hard Time, which really should have been referenced again, even if only once) and Voyager did it a bunch too. But they both took on subjects that TNG may not have done, so I give them both points for that.
They never refererd to the events of Pale Moonlight again on the show. But then, they wouldn't. Sisko and Garak would both be well-motivated to keep their mouths shut. Some people in Starfleet Command that gave Sisko his blessing know about it, but they to would be silent about it. Indirectly, though, you see consequences with every episode that has the Romulans in it fighting by the Federation's side, so doesn't just end with 'and then she woke up' and none of it ever happened. I thought it would make an interesting episode about how the Romulans find out about it one day and are boiling mad, and what price the Federation pays. I am thinking during the reconstruction of Cardassia, Garak would be debriefed about everything he learned while on DS9 as part of the price of being in a senior position again. That would include Pale Moonlight, and once it becomes known to lots of people in the Obsidian Order a Romulan mole might find out. It would be a good reason to give Garak some more screen time. Or perhaps a Romulan mole in Starfleet Command. (Is Denise Crosby busy?) By that time Sisko would be beyond consequences, but the Romulans would clearly want something big in exchange. I suppose it's a decade too late to make it now.
Guys, why this pissing match over which show was darker? Who cares? I think both shows tended to be darker than The Next Generation – both in terms of cinematography/lighting and themes. But if you look at the TNG movies and later Enterprise you'll notice that they became pretty dark and earnest as time went on as well. That was just the trend at the end of the 90s and the early 2000s. Yes, I feel Deep Space Nine more often than not tended to approach its stories with a little more seriousness and depth and avoided flat-out happy ends. But that's not to say that Voyager shied away from heavier material and a serious presentation in their episodes. And even with Deep Space Nine experimenting a lot with continuous storylines, most episodes still made sure to retain the status quo at the end, just like Voyager. I guess I just don't understand why one show has to be pitted against the other. One can be perfectly able to enjoy and love both, even if one prefers one of the shows. At least that's how I feel about this.
The Obsidian Order had collapsed by the end of Season 3 (yet more proof that DS9 has consequences). I doubt a post-war Cardassia would be allowed to re-found it, it would be like West Germany restarting the Gestapo. And even Garak. No, especially Garak, would know that returning to those old ways would be a step in the wrong direction.
I don't care which show is darker. TNG had a very light tone, and it was probably the best series. I'm just interested in the way themes and issues are explored in each show, and I think VOY's handling of darker material suffered in this regard because of the way they approached storytelling. I see this point bought up a lot, and it's one I don't really understand. Obviously you can't match up two shows and come up with a direct winner, but I think it's interesting to explore relative strengths and flaws through direct comparison. In general, a lot of people seem to find VOY a little light, including Frakes, apparently - you'll see more 'why VOY failed' threads than 'why DS9 failed' threads. I think it's interesting to look at the nuts and bolts of storytelling to see why that's the case.
Good point. Service and cunning are so integral to Cardassian values, I doubt they'd give them up. I'd say a weakened Cardassia would be more likely to invest in a secret police system - without military might, they'd need people skilled in sabatage and spying all the more.
My choice of West Germany was quite deliberate. The Klingons and the Federation wouldn't allow it. The only way it could happen is if post-war situation with the Romulans had direct parallels with the Cold War, and Cardassia was split into a Romulan aligned state, and a UFP/Klingon aligned state. This was already changing before the war.
Well unless he was edited into an old episode with William shatner and Leonard Nimoy and I haven't seen it then he hasn't been in TOS! Over the years I've heard a lot of people don't like Flakey boy and I don't know why? He always seems quite good in the role and apart from that innane grin he has I think he's alright! JB
Of course there's nothing wrong with comparing and contrasting the various shows! I'm glad they all have their different strengths and individual quirks. That aspect is one of those things that makes Star Trek so interesting, as a franchise and as a fandom. But oftentimes these discussion tend to degenerate into fights over which show was better. I guess that's okay as well, but with some fans it really seems like they aren't able to profess their love for one show without trashing one of the others. Why can't they just enjoy the strengths of one show without belittling another?
"Dark" storytelling does not automatically mean that a story contained within it is compelling. It just means that the episode is serious in its nature. The one thing I give TNG credit for is that it told stories without the usual conventions and formula of storytelling, and it often did it extremely well. TNG was a show that not everyone could write for.