The ROTJ constructive criticism thread
- Thread starter Kor
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It's George Lucas' love for repetition that he so fiercely advocates, from picture to picture. Han made Luke jealous in A New Hope by using the Princess and now, in ESB, Luke's making Han jealous by using the Princess. Got to milk every, single drop out of story elements that you can. Every last one of them ... and this thing with Leia being passed around is no exception.
They definitely built it up that she was the Other. But it wasn't until Jedi that suddenly the Skywalkers were the only game in town.
I think that's just inherent in Han being cooler and more charming than Luke.
The filmmakers had no more idea than we did. Hell, at that point they didn't know that Luke and Vader were related. (There are scripted scenes very late in the production that have Luke, Vader, and Luke's father.)
To quote Dr. Jones: "I don't know. I'm making this up as I go!"
Vader being the Padre wasn't in the script. Only the Man, the director, and the actor knew.
I'm sure Luke and Leia being siblings was at least on the table, if not decided upon during the writing of ESB.
While there were plans for a "long, lost sister" earlier on, that was when there were still ideas of making a 12 part serial, of which ANH was the first, and I think the "trilogy of trilogies" thing got locked down during the making of ESB.
So I hear.
I'm sure Luke and Leia being siblings was at least on the table, if not decided upon during the writing of ESB.
While there were plans for a "long, lost sister" earlier on, that was when there were still ideas of making a 12 part serial, of which ANH was the first, and I think the "trilogy of trilogies" thing got locked down during the making of ESB.
So I hear.
Yes, that's true. But even that wasn't landed on until later in filming.
Or so the story goes.
(I do wonder if Mark Hamill will do all of his filming for Star Wars IX in an afternoon like Guinness did.)
It really wasn't, not without hindsight. And, "Splinter in a Mind's Eye" certainly lend credance to that fact as well.
She couldn't?
Yeah, that scene casts a lot of things in doubt.
No. Splinter of the Mind's Eye would have been the basis for a low-budget sequel if SW77 had underperformed. It was also developed by Foster largely without the benefit of yet seeing how everything played out on the big screen.
Yes, because Foster had full run with it?
I'm clearly not the only one to think so either:
At the time this book was written, story elements revealed in later films had not yet been established. For example, the sibling relationship between Luke and Leia had yet to be decided. But the characters themselves would have been unaware of their relationship at this point in their lives, which explains the presence of some sexual tension between them. (The credibility of Leia's claim on Endor that she had "always known" Luke was her brother is undermined by the decidedly unbrotherly kiss she bestows him on Hoth.
But, I'm glad you find it so amusing.
ETA:
Another quote from a Huffington Pos article:
This is important because it lends credence to Gary Kurtz, producer of Empire Strikes Back, who said to TheForce.Net:
She’s not his sister. That dropped in to wrap up everything neatly. His sister was someone else way over on the other side of the galaxy and she wasn’t going to show up until the next episode.
Another edit:
The Radio Drama isn't exactly familial in presentation of the kiss
or this 79 comic:
Or this:
Panels from Star Wars Weekly #110 (Marvel UK; April 2, 1980), script by Chris Claremont, pencils by Carmine Infantino, inks by Gene Day, letters by Jean Simek
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Once TESB came out, It was never plausible that Splinter could credibly take place between SW77 and TESB. Splinter no doubt serves as an indication of what elements of continuity Lucas had committed to during the development of the original film. But Splinter itself carried no weight to limit those elements, as the blockbuster success of the original film meant that the fallback plan wasn't needed, and a blockbuster successor with a budget even bigger than the original's could be developed. In other words, Splinter lends no credence to anything in that regard.
Moreover, if you read what I said about the writing being on the wall, I was talking very specifically about how things were playing out on the big screen in the final version (as of 1977). I didn't have a chance yet to reply to @Tallguy's last reply to me, but now is as good a time as any.
Moreover, if you read what I said about the writing being on the wall, I was talking very specifically about how things were playing out on the big screen in the final version (as of 1977). I didn't have a chance yet to reply to @Tallguy's last reply to me, but now is as good a time as any.
That's no doubt part of it, but there are very specific differences in the way Han and Leia interact with each other from the way Luke and Leia interact, some scripted and some not. For example, it's scripted that Han winks at Leia during the awards ceremony, but it's not scripted, yet shown, that immediately prior Leia flirtatiously tugs on Han's medal's neck band which as it plays incites Han's wink. Leia doesn't do that with Luke's and Luke doesn't wink at her either. Luke approaches his interaction with Leia as a naive kid with a crush. Han approaches his own interaction with Leia more as someone who has been around. Han and Leia squabble; Luke and Leia just try to get along. Leia expresses admiration for Han to Luke ("He certainly has courage") but never of Luke to Han. The more natural fit for romance was always going to be with Han.
The one doesn't contradict the other. She still only kissed him to make Han jealous. If a year later, after learning the truth, she feels like she knew, that still doesn't mean she knew. She didn't know because no one told her. If you were to have a "girl talk" with Leia, and ask her "what about Luke" she could say "ewwww, no, he's more like a brother" and still have reason to kiss him(to make her romantic interest of the film, Han, jealous).It really wasn't, not without hindsight. And, "Splinter in a Mind's Eye" certainly lend credance to that fact as well.
She couldn't?
Yeah, that scene casts a lot of things in doubt.
Luke "somehow always knew" as well. As soon as he was told he had a twin sister, he knew it was Leia. Also, the rivalry between the Han & Luke continued in RotJ, right until it was revealed to Han.
The competency of the writers, director, and cast. (I lay more of the blame on the first two than the third.)
Yeah, that scene casts a lot of things in doubt.
Sorry, that really doesn't flow for me. Watching the films in hindsight, yeah I can ind of see it. But, watching them from the beginning, I certainly don't pick up on the tendency.
Now, all that said, seeing in the free flow of the narrative now, with that hindsight, I can see it kind of. But, the idea that there were hints always without that hindsight doesn't work for me.
Doesn't mean they were meant to be related. Han always presented a hog dog flirtatious guy, while Luke is the nice guy. Watching that scene, I can see interest from both.
I agree, and that's not the only significant element in TESB that foreshadows the reveal if not actually implies that Leia has kindship with Luke.
When Vader sees the probe droid's fragmentary report about a base on Hoth, he argues with his top Admiral to insist that Luke is on Hoth. There evidently isn't anything in the report that the officers can read to support this, so it's strongly suggested if not implied that Vader is feeling this through the Force.
When the Falcon escapes into the asteroid field, Vader has another argument with his officers, insisting that the crew of the Falcon is alive. Vader orders every ship available into the field to find them. As established in the opening crawl, Vader is after Luke, and apparently he's been sensing Luke through the Force. Now he switches objectives, but apparently continues to sense what he believes is his objective through the Force. Why? One possible answer is that he is sensing Leia, and that she is masking the fact that Luke really isn't on the Falcon.
Of course, another possibility is that Vader already knows that Luke has escaped and has switched his objective to locating bait that will draw him out. Granted, and Vader certainly does this later on by the time that Boba Fett has followed the Falcon to Bespin. Still, what we see is certainly compatible with the idea that Vader has actually gotten confused, and pursued the wrong objective, which gives Luke the time he needs to get some training on Dagobah.
Though I find this idea intriguing, and it reminds me of a passage in Shadows of the Empire, Vader didn't seem to sense his own kinship with Leia in ANH.
Well, torture does funny things to the senses.
The thing with sensing a familiar presence, is that it has to be familiar. Obi-Wan's presence was as familiar as his face because Anakin had been around it so much. Ahsoka had to actively reach out and touch Vader's mind before he clocked her.
Vader wasn't familiar with the presence of either of his kids because he didn't have any reason to think they outlived Padme and even that was probably not something he even thought about if he could help it. He didn't recognise Luke as his progeny either until after he heard his name, and even then he went digging for evidence to confirm it.
ANH also seems to imply that Leia had crossed Vader's paths before, so if he felt any familiarity at all he probably would have chalked it up to his having known Bail.
Vader wasn't familiar with the presence of either of his kids because he didn't have any reason to think they outlived Padme and even that was probably not something he even thought about if he could help it. He didn't recognise Luke as his progeny either until after he heard his name, and even then he went digging for evidence to confirm it.
ANH also seems to imply that Leia had crossed Vader's paths before, so if he felt any familiarity at all he probably would have chalked it up to his having known Bail.
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Good point.
