Genetic engineering: Why aren't ALL Vorta as smart as Bashir?

[JirinPanthosa]

Every soldier in the entire Dominion army is genetically engineered. So why is it the genetic engineering seems so much worse than Starfleet's? They've had a lot more time to perfect the technique, and a lot less moral compunctions about the research. Yet the Vorta we see have been above average specialists at best. Why is Dominion genetic engineering technology apparently so far behind Starfleet's?

This seems to be an issue in a lot of Trek, once they have established the possible results of genetic engineering. Why isn't there an army of genetically engineered Romulans controlling the strategic direction of the Empire? Or genetically engineered Ferengi businessmen who can predict the direction of the market years in advance? Why is it the only power that thinks genetic engineering is immoral is such by far the best at it?

I suppose in the Dominion case they intentionally may have made the Vorta only 'smart by solid standards' to avoid them outthinking their programming. They wouldn't want to make a slave army smarter than they are. But that shouldn't stop the Romulans or Ferengi. We already know Romulan children with genetic defects are terminated, so genetic improvements should just be seen on their planet as crafting a superior race.

 

[Verteron]

I suspect the Romulans believe they already are the superior race. No improvement needed. Vulcanoids, after all, seem to have higher strength, greater durability, longer lifespans, better senses and superior mental discipline to most other humanoid species.

For a more 'techie' explanation there may be limits on what can be achieved with genetic engineering. For example, your soldier could be made superstrong, but the muscles would require so much energy from food they might need to spend 6 hours a day chowing down. Increase eyesight to a ridiculous degree, and the amount of neurons required to process the information in the brain would be so great, the required mass of brain tissue wouldn't fit in the skull.

We know the Jem'Hadar only live 15 years (and most of them die in battle long before), I think this is good evidence that the candle that burns four times as strong lasts a quarter of the time.

A Jem'Hadar, Augment Human, Vulcan or Klingon (all of whom seem to be at similar levels on a good day, although this can change depending on the plot) might be as about as high as humanoids can go without literally inventing new biochemistry.

 

[kkt]

Bashir is also lucky. A lot of the human genetic engineering products ended up like Jack or even worse.

I wouldn't say it's Starfleet either. Starfleet doesn't do genetic engineering. That's black market or Section 31.

 

[Timo]

To the contrary, genetic engineering, especially for the purposes of creating superpeople, seems to be what the government does, and quite openly at that - see "Unnatural Selection".

Starfleet's role is limited to arresting those who practice GE without government license, or try to infiltrate government jobs despite being beneficiaries of illegal private GE...

As for random Trek species (including regulars), perhaps they are already the result of genetic engineering intended to maximize their biological potential - and in most cases having achieved that goal already?

Earth prides itself on natural evolution of the local smart humanoids (even though this is not true at all - evolution everywhere seems to be overridden by the clever programming of those "The Chase" Ancients who want every planet to sprout sapient bipeds at least once in an aeon, and 'em monkeys here on Terra might never have decided to develop big and expensive brains if not for this programming). Vulcan, OTOH, does not - Spock refers to mysteries in Vulcan ancenstry in "Return to Tomorrow". Perhaps Vulcanoids are already maxed out by the engineering conducted by those who created/transplanted the species?

And the one thing we know of Klingons is that they always change their looks - even back in TOS, they changed their looks for every single episode featuring them! In ENT, we witness an explicit program to manipulate the Klingon genome for generic gain, and we don't get the impression that this would be a rare thing, let alone something contrary to the Klingon ethics or beliefs. Quite possibly Klingons constantly engineer themselves, having ascended from original wimpiness to the galactic standard of humanoid strength solely through their own engineering effort, and still tinkering with stuff so that they could look not just like their gods, but actually better.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Leviathan]

Eugenics, it's a tricky task. Given the number of dog, cow, sheep, and horse breeds you'd think it to rather easy. The times human royalty tried it they produced total and complete nut-bags.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

What happened to Jack occurred (Per Statistical Probabilities) because his parents were able to find a more competent doctor. And even if the Romulans believe they are the superior species, they're rational enough to know they don't have a tactical advantage over Starfleet or the Dominion. You may be right about the effect of strength, but why wouldn't the Romulans want super-strategizers?

And Romulans wouldn't have moral compunctions about terminating the mistakes.

 

[matthunter]

Easy: The Founders aren't going to trust that an entire race as smart as Bashir can't find a way around their engineered "we're Gods, listen to us" schtick OR addiction to the White.

Given that enhanced humans caused a devastating war on Earth, it's likely other races have similarly bad experiences or know the potential for such.

The Jem'hadar are engineered for battle, not smarts. The Vorta were "uplifted" to sentience but there's no evidence of exceptional intellect (by human standards) - they are however good administrators and politicians (though I refuse to see any genetic basis for politics that isn't the result of severe inbreeding depression).

 

[matthunter]

Eugenics, it's a tricky task. Given the number of dog, cow, sheep, and horse breeds you'd think it to rather easy. The times human royalty tried it they produced total and complete nut-bags.

The thing with cows is, they COULD all be batshit insane and it doesn't actually matter.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I suppose in the Dominion case they intentionally may have made the Vorta only 'smart by solid standards' to avoid them outthinking their programming. They wouldn't want to make a slave army smarter than they are. But that shouldn't stop the Romulans or Ferengi. We already know Romulan children with genetic defects are terminated, so genetic improvements should just be seen on their planet as crafting a superior race.

It may be one thing for a race to improve itself through genetic engineering, but would they do the same to their pets or farm animals? What's the impetus for making it so that our sources of meat or eggs can think better than us? The Jem'hadar and Vorta are tools for the Founders,thus are bread to fit the Founders' needs, not exceed them.

 

[Christopher]

The title question is very odd. That's like asking why dump trucks aren't as fast as Ferraris. The whole point of genetic engineering is that you can specialize -- design different life forms to favor different traits. Bashir's parents had him engineered for genius; the Vorta are engineered to be capable, loyal, unimaginative administrators.

 

[Leviathan]

The thing with cows is, they COULD all be batshit insane and it doesn't actually matter.

Precisely why you will never see The Revolution coming...they wait....soon...soon...

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Easy: The Founders aren't going to trust that an entire race as smart as Bashir can't find a way around their engineered "we're Gods, listen to us" schtick OR addiction to the White.

Given that enhanced humans caused a devastating war on Earth, it's likely other races have similarly bad experiences or know the potential for such.

The Jem'hadar are engineered for battle, not smarts. The Vorta were "uplifted" to sentience but there's no evidence of exceptional intellect (by human standards) - they are however good administrators and politicians (though I refuse to see any genetic basis for politics that isn't the result of severe inbreeding depression).

I'd disagree that Jem'Hadar were not bred to be smart. They were bred with an accelerated growth rate that included the ability to learn and absorb information very quickly. In most cases they seem to have a better grasp of things than the Vorta. There is also some onscreen evidence to suggest that the older a Jem'hadar got, they became more introspective and contemplative.

 

[Christopher]

"Smart" isn't one thing. The Jem'Hadar were designed to be intelligent in a way that was suitable for warriors. That's different from the form of intelligence that would produce a genius scientist or doctor.

 

[matthunter]

"Smart" isn't one thing. The Jem'Hadar were designed to be intelligent in a way that was suitable for warriors. That's different from the form of intelligence that would produce a genius scientist or doctor.

Precisely. I wasn't implying they were dumb, or even that they are less capable of abstract thought that humans, but that they haven't been engineered to enhance those abilities. As another poster above stated, you can focus genetic engineering specifically, and the Founders saw no reason with the Jem'hadar to focus on super-genius IQ, nor the Vorta. In fact, hyper-intelligence could be explicitly MORE of a threat than super-strength or speed (The Flash is currently going through such a storyline) so there's a strong reason for the Founders to avoid giving their creations that particular advantage.

Bashir, conversely, doesn't have superior strength or endurance (though he does display enhanced hand-eye coordination) but he was engineered simply to deal with an intellectual "handicap" (which probably wasn't if his parents weren't too focused on academic achievement as a measure of personal worth) and the therapy on offer didn't simply "correct" it but boosted him beyond human norms - or at least to the limit thereof (since he's not explicitly smarter than, say, Wesley Crusher).

 

[MacLeod]

If they made them too smart they might come to realise that the Founders aren't in fact "Gods" and they are being used as little more than slaves.

 

[at Quark's]

People who want to keep all power and control in their own hands usually don't want servants smarter than themselves.

 

[Captain alex]

I actually know the answer to this question. Each vorta was specifically bred for their own role. For example, Weyoun was bred for appearing congenial & deception against the enemy. He was the best at what he does, and the others the best for their roles too. Weyoun wasn't bred as a lab technician.

Hope this helps. This is the official answer.

From Star Trek's no.1 fan.

All the best

 

[maneth]

They didn't need them supersmart, so they didn't try to breed that into them. Heaven knows, if the Vorta had been all that smart, they would have found a way to throw off the shapeshifter worship. Not a risk the Dominion wanted to take.

 

[Christopher]

Heaven knows, if the Vorta had been all that smart, they would have found a way to throw off the shapeshifter worship.

Not necessarily. Sometimes people just use their intelligence to invent justifications for what they want to believe. Historically, some very smart people have invented what seemed like very well-reasoned and thoughtful justifications for utterly wrong ideas like racial supremacy or why women shouldn't vote or why their nation was entitled to invade and conquer its neighbors. And there have been smart people coming up with very creative, logical "proofs" for multiple different and mutually contradictory religions. Intelligence is a tool like any other, and that means it isn't automatically applied in the right way just because it's there.

After all, questioning your own preconceptions requires more than intelligence -- it requires humility.

 

[maneth]

Not necessarily. Sometimes people just use their intelligence to invent justifications for what they want to believe. Historically, some very smart people have invented what seemed like very well-reasoned and thoughtful justifications for utterly wrong ideas like racial supremacy or why women shouldn't vote or why their nation was entitled to invade and conquer its neighbors. And there have been smart people coming up with very creative, logical "proofs" for multiple different and mutually contradictory religions. Intelligence is a tool like any other, and that means it isn't automatically applied in the right way just because it's there.

After all, questioning your own preconceptions requires more than intelligence -- it requires humility.

Fair points, all.
Intelligence isn't necessarily the most important tool for survival, either. My point was rather that the changelings couldn't risk making the Vorta any smarter than necessary, they might get rebellious ideas. They were smart enough to do their jobs, and as they were genetically engineered, there was no need to make them any smarter than that.
Intelligence isn't the same thing as wisdom, which also requires humility and empathy rather than just "academic smarts".