Why not make Chakotay hispanic

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Trekboy1993, Dec 18, 2017.

  1. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It doesn't bother me because they were trying to be diverse but in a very PC 1990's kind of way. Not offend anyone by making any bold choices but don't want a bunch of vanilla 1950's only white people cast as well. Also actors have been playing different ethnic groups for a very long time and frankly your never going to find the perfect match at all times. They could have done much much worse. They could have had him talking with a stilted speech pattern or frankly they could have written him more like the indian tribes we saw both on TOS and TNG which felt very cliche to me even back in the 1990's. Compare him also to the Indian that Sam Beckett helped on "Quantum Leap" or the time Zach Morris found out he was part indian and it's actually a big improvement.

    Jason
     
  2. Brennyren

    Brennyren Commodore Commodore

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    I wasn't objecting to Beltran's ethnicity. I said it was the most authentic thing about the character.
     
  3. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Obviously they hired an expert who was not of Native American blood and his advice may or may not have been worthwhile. However they established with or without any expert references that Chakotay was off planet and generations so.

    Truly I think the can of worms of doing it 'right' may have satisfied few but not many. Even a tradition changes here and there short of making it a documentary (with a credible source).

    Personally I liked Chakotay's what I will call - spirituality. Even if it may have not been specific enough for others.
     
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  4. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    The Enterprise has a chapel (or at least a room that occasionally functions as a chapel). I recommend a rewatch of "Bread and Circuses" - it's more than obvious that Uhura is Christian. There are numerous instances in both the TV series and the movies in which McCoy expresses his religious views.

    As for abortion and gay rights, you should realize that back in the '60s, these are not things that were ever discussed in TV series - certainly not in anything that was considered "family-friendly." They wouldn't allow the original ending of "Who Mourns for Adonais" to stand because Carolyn Palamas turns out to be pregnant by Apollo. Remember that this was the era in which most TV shows depicted married couples sleeping in twin beds. So you are not going to find the TOS characters discussing abortion or gay rights.

    It would be appreciated if you would spell this word correctly: atheist.

    I sit around reading Shakespeare like it's the 16th century and then boot up my laptop and go online. I don't see the problem if the TNG characters have an obsession with classical music, and it's fun when Tom Paris gets into his 20th century hobbies. They play futuristic sports and have the holodeck to design pretty much any kind of recreational setting they want.

    Voyager had movie night on the holodeck, and B'Elanna built Tom a 1950s-style TV set (albeit with a remote control and the shows were downloaded from Voyager's library database).

    It's an entirely justified assumption, given the words of a studio executive when objections were raised to using ancient Mayan aliens in TMP. The executive shrugged and said, "The audience will never know the difference."

    Some of us do know the difference. It still annoys me when I do a rewatch of one of the Fifth Doctor stories (Four to Doomsday) in which the Doctor states that the Mayans "lived 8000 years ago in South America."

    That's total BS. They were never in South America, and from the reference point of the 20th century (when that story was set), they most assuredly did not live 8000 years ago.

    The more anthropology I took in high school and college, the less I was able to suspend my disbelief when SF series went the "ancient aliens" route and trotted out all this crap about the Egyptians, Mayans, and others really being aliens. It feeds into the nonsense that humans couldn't really have built the Pyramids or Stonehenge.

    Hollywood is guilty of a hell of a lot of "these people are unfamiliar to most of the audience, so they will never know the difference if we go the route of mysticism and make up anything we want." That's what I mean by assuming the audience is stupid.
     
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  5. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You'd think if it was justified, you'd be able to find relevant quotes from Michael Piller or Jeri Taylor, or anyone else directly involved, rather than nameless executives from the motion picture or Doctor who. This should be easy with the immense amount of behind the scenes info, interviews, promotional material, etc out there. It is definitively unjust and/or unethical to attribute ill will, dishonesty, callousness, or otherwise negative intentions on a person(s) without evidence.

    Have you ever gotten as passionate over Chekov's terrible Russian accent, or everyone setting him straight when he tries to express his Russian Pride. Or Scotty, who wasn't Scottish, or the portrayal of Irish stereotypes in TNG. What about TNG's "Journey's End." It's the episode that inspired Chakotay's character. Which tribe were they? They simply referred to them as "American Indians."
     
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  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Them people were translocated to space by Aliens called the preservers near the 15th century.

    Chakotay's deal was completely different, and he is not Kirok's grandson.
     
  7. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think you're joking, but that's a different episode.

    I'm referring to the episode where Wesley becomes an @**hole, gains superpowers, then goes off gallivanting with a traveler.
     
  8. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    :rolleyes:

    Oh, do forgive me. Hollywood execs are total paragons of virtue who would never, ever not do due diligence as far as research goes.

    I read the TMP example in one of the behind-the-scenes "making of" books. The Doctor Who example is one I heard with my own ears in the story.

    If you think this is "passionate" then you haven't read my posts regarding Clara in Doctor Who or how much I loathe nuTrek.

    Let's get some things straight. It was Walter Koenig's terrible Russian accent, and Chekov's Russian pride. There is no reason to suppose Scotty is not Scottish. The actor, James Doohan, was Canadian. I suppose he could have made the accent ultra-authentic, but it would have made it difficult for a fair number of people in the audience to understand him.

    You'll notice that I never said a syllable of criticism regarding Chakotay's accent. I already commented on the Irish stereotypes in TNG. I haven't seen "Journey's End in so many years, I barely remember it - other than it involved native Americans being chased off their planet by the Cardassians, Wesley being a jerk, and that he ended up leaving with the Traveler. I would have to watch it again, which is not going to happen any time soon, since I don't own any DVDs and had to nuke my Netflix account after it was hacked.

    Using the term "American Indians" is like saying they were "Europeans" - it's a big continent in terms of cultures and traditions and religious practices. Or if they just said they were "Africans." Again - huge continent, particularly in terms of cultures, traditions, and religious practices. You'll notice that they pinned Uhura's background down pretty specifically and it didn't hurt her any. Why couldn't they have done that with Chakotay?
     
  9. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why should they? Not everyone should be representative of having their worth pinned down to one culture or its reference. It's like Chakotay is not good enough because he can't wave one banner.

    I find that kind of insulting. That if you are not pure blood then you shouldn't be a character on a science fiction show.
     
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  10. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    OH, FFS!!! :scream:

    You've been entirely missing the point here. It's not that he can't wave one banner. It's that he's waving a ton of banners that are totally irrelevant to the background the producers and writers gave him.
     
  11. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well no. You are missing the point. The producers did not intend to give him this Native American one note heritage that some would think validates his worth. They intentionally kept his background vague and in fact he was born on a colony. That gave them the wiggle room not to be scolded by people who think they know everything.
     
  12. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Is Uhura a "one note" character because her heritage was specifically pinpointed? No. With good writing and some research and competent advice from a real consultant rather than a fraudster, Chakotay wouldn't have been a one note character, either.

    But they chose not to do it that way, and so you get a segment of the fans rolling their eyes about it.
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, I am wrong again, but how I remember the episode from almost 20 years ago last time I saw it, is Picard taking time explain to the audience, that "hundreds of years ago, these people were forcably relocated, so we should be sensitive about doing it again"

    I now, finally, understand that Jean-Luc was talking about 19th century America being a prick, but it's astonishing that any one with a first class education, didn't already know all about the darker side of the Ancient West, that it needed being verbalized.
     
  14. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't wish to get in an argument with you. What they gave Uhura was what they followed through with. Mind you I think her character on TOS was pretty background if you want to know the truth. Not because of her ethnicity though.

    They could have had a university of blood line Native American consultants writing every script and it would change nothing about how Chakotay was never given one tribe or a pin pointed Native American reference to critique him on.

    Roll your eyes all you want at some misguided attempt at diversity.
     
  15. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Seems rather ridiculous that Picard with his French/European background would pass any kind of credible judgement on 19th Century America.
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    The first nation was, and still is really hard done by, so Captain Picard did not want to be remembered in the same breath as white men like Andrew Jackson or George Custer.
     
  17. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Picard knew about the history. He was kind of shocked though to find out a Picard had been part of that history because the family line stuff has always been important to him.

    Jason
     
  18. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah sorry. My TNG stuff is limited in detail. No one wants to repeat the ills of history but the lessons (Guy reference) cannot be cherry picked either. In reaping the lessons you have to explore everything. No one is all good or all bad.
     
  19. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Too late for that.

    Irrelevant. The point is that they gave her a specific background and followed through with it.

    And... WHOOSH! as the point goes zooming overhead.

    Your last sentence looks suspiciously like an accusation of racism on my part. I certainly hope I'm mistaken in that.

    Unlike some people, Picard learned from history. Or at least he learned from that bit of history. He still has a long way to go.
     
  20. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Okay. If you wish to argue.

    The point that they gave Uhura her background IS irrelevant to what they gave Chakotay. He is not her and had a different background.

    How Picard even got into this I still wonder.