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Why not make Chakotay hispanic

Why bother to hire an "expert" at all if you have no intention of being specific? If they had hired an actual expert, and bothered to listen to what that expert said, they would have had an excellent chance of "doing it right." If not, viewers at least would have known that they made an honest attempt at it. As things were, they hired somebody without going to enough trouble to find out that real Native Americans, and real experts, considered him a fraud, and then they never bothered to bring anyone else on board. No points for effort.



"It just opens the door to invent things." Well, yes. And that's what they did. The difference is that I object to that, and you apparently don't.

The only authentically Native American thing about Chakotay was Robert Beltran's racial heritage. And while he certainly did acknowledge that aspect of his lineage, he personally always came across as identifying more as Latino.

It doesn't bother me because they were trying to be diverse but in a very PC 1990's kind of way. Not offend anyone by making any bold choices but don't want a bunch of vanilla 1950's only white people cast as well. Also actors have been playing different ethnic groups for a very long time and frankly your never going to find the perfect match at all times. They could have done much much worse. They could have had him talking with a stilted speech pattern or frankly they could have written him more like the indian tribes we saw both on TOS and TNG which felt very cliche to me even back in the 1990's. Compare him also to the Indian that Sam Beckett helped on "Quantum Leap" or the time Zach Morris found out he was part indian and it's actually a big improvement.

Jason
 
Also actors have been playing different ethnic groups for a very long time and frankly your never going to find the perfect match at all times.

I wasn't objecting to Beltran's ethnicity. I said it was the most authentic thing about the character.
 
Why bother to hire an "expert" at all if you have no intention of being specific? If they had hired an actual expert, and bothered to listen to what that expert said, they would have had an excellent chance of "doing it right." If not, viewers at least would have known that they made an honest attempt at it. As things were, they hired somebody without going to enough trouble to find out that real Native Americans, and real experts, considered him a fraud, and then they never bothered to bring anyone else on board. No points for effort.



"It just opens the door to invent things." Well, yes. And that's what they did. The difference is that I object to that, and you apparently don't.

The only authentically Native American thing about Chakotay was Robert Beltran's racial heritage. And while he certainly did acknowledge that aspect of his lineage, he personally always came across as identifying more as Latino.
Obviously they hired an expert who was not of Native American blood and his advice may or may not have been worthwhile. However they established with or without any expert references that Chakotay was off planet and generations so.

Truly I think the can of worms of doing it 'right' may have satisfied few but not many. Even a tradition changes here and there short of making it a documentary (with a credible source).

Personally I liked Chakotay's what I will call - spirituality. Even if it may have not been specific enough for others.
 
Yet we never see Uhura or McCoy go to church. They don't ever have any specific opinions on abortion or gay rights or really show they even worship a God. Just knowing a BIble verse is hardly all it takes to be Christian. I know a few and I have no interest in being part of a religion. A show like Trek will always sort of just skim the surface of earth culture because it's hard to even nail down what life is like on earth in the 23rd or 24th century.
The Enterprise has a chapel (or at least a room that occasionally functions as a chapel). I recommend a rewatch of "Bread and Circuses" - it's more than obvious that Uhura is Christian. There are numerous instances in both the TV series and the movies in which McCoy expresses his religious views.

As for abortion and gay rights, you should realize that back in the '60s, these are not things that were ever discussed in TV series - certainly not in anything that was considered "family-friendly." They wouldn't allow the original ending of "Who Mourns for Adonais" to stand because Carolyn Palamas turns out to be pregnant by Apollo. Remember that this was the era in which most TV shows depicted married couples sleeping in twin beds. So you are not going to find the TOS characters discussing abortion or gay rights.

I'm guessing most have gone down the aithest route
It would be appreciated if you would spell this word correctly: atheist.

They have all evolved into Roddenberry humans, wear the same kinds of clothes all seem to embrace either technology or retro stuff. Only in Trek would people sit around listening to classical music like it's the 1780's and then go to some room and starting spouting technobabble with each other.
I sit around reading Shakespeare like it's the 16th century and then boot up my laptop and go online. I don't see the problem if the TNG characters have an obsession with classical music, and it's fun when Tom Paris gets into his 20th century hobbies. They play futuristic sports and have the holodeck to design pretty much any kind of recreational setting they want.

Also their doesn't seem to be much modern art. People write books but most of the holodeck programs seem to be always built around past settings. No movies or tv. The little modern music we have seen is awful. They do seem to still like sports. It is a very conservative world they seem to live in only they have simply removed the religious stuff and sort of transfered some of the racism towards alien cultures but even they are in denial about that.
Voyager had movie night on the holodeck, and B'Elanna built Tom a 1950s-style TV set (albeit with a remote control and the shows were downloaded from Voyager's library database).

"They just assumed the audience is too stupid." That my friend, is an assumption in itself, and an unfair one as it fails to give the benefit of the doubt.

You are in no position to cast judgments.
It's an entirely justified assumption, given the words of a studio executive when objections were raised to using ancient Mayan aliens in TMP. The executive shrugged and said, "The audience will never know the difference."

Some of us do know the difference. It still annoys me when I do a rewatch of one of the Fifth Doctor stories (Four to Doomsday) in which the Doctor states that the Mayans "lived 8000 years ago in South America."

That's total BS. They were never in South America, and from the reference point of the 20th century (when that story was set), they most assuredly did not live 8000 years ago.

The more anthropology I took in high school and college, the less I was able to suspend my disbelief when SF series went the "ancient aliens" route and trotted out all this crap about the Egyptians, Mayans, and others really being aliens. It feeds into the nonsense that humans couldn't really have built the Pyramids or Stonehenge.

Hollywood is guilty of a hell of a lot of "these people are unfamiliar to most of the audience, so they will never know the difference if we go the route of mysticism and make up anything we want." That's what I mean by assuming the audience is stupid.
 
You'd think if it was justified, you'd be able to find relevant quotes from Michael Piller or Jeri Taylor, or anyone else directly involved, rather than nameless executives from the motion picture or Doctor who. This should be easy with the immense amount of behind the scenes info, interviews, promotional material, etc out there. It is definitively unjust and/or unethical to attribute ill will, dishonesty, callousness, or otherwise negative intentions on a person(s) without evidence.

Have you ever gotten as passionate over Chekov's terrible Russian accent, or everyone setting him straight when he tries to express his Russian Pride. Or Scotty, who wasn't Scottish, or the portrayal of Irish stereotypes in TNG. What about TNG's "Journey's End." It's the episode that inspired Chakotay's character. Which tribe were they? They simply referred to them as "American Indians."
 
Them people were translocated to space by Aliens called the preservers near the 15th century.

Chakotay's deal was completely different, and he is not Kirok's grandson.
 
I think you're joking, but that's a different episode.

I'm referring to the episode where Wesley becomes an @**hole, gains superpowers, then goes off gallivanting with a traveler.
 
You'd think if it was justified, you'd be able to find relevant quotes from Michael Piller or Jeri Taylor, or anyone else directly involved, rather than nameless executives from the motion picture or Doctor who. This should be easy with the immense amount of behind the scenes info, interviews, promotional material, etc out there. It is definitively unjust and/or unethical to attribute ill will, dishonesty, callousness, or otherwise negative intentions on a person(s) without evidence.
:rolleyes:

Oh, do forgive me. Hollywood execs are total paragons of virtue who would never, ever not do due diligence as far as research goes.

I read the TMP example in one of the behind-the-scenes "making of" books. The Doctor Who example is one I heard with my own ears in the story.

Have you ever gotten as passionate over Chekov's terrible Russian accent, or everyone setting him straight when he tries to express his Russian Pride. Or Scotty, who wasn't Scottish, or the portrayal of Irish stereotypes in TNG. What about TNG's "Journey's End." It's the episode that inspired Chakotay's character. Which tribe were they? They simply referred to them as "American Indians."
If you think this is "passionate" then you haven't read my posts regarding Clara in Doctor Who or how much I loathe nuTrek.

Let's get some things straight. It was Walter Koenig's terrible Russian accent, and Chekov's Russian pride. There is no reason to suppose Scotty is not Scottish. The actor, James Doohan, was Canadian. I suppose he could have made the accent ultra-authentic, but it would have made it difficult for a fair number of people in the audience to understand him.

You'll notice that I never said a syllable of criticism regarding Chakotay's accent. I already commented on the Irish stereotypes in TNG. I haven't seen "Journey's End in so many years, I barely remember it - other than it involved native Americans being chased off their planet by the Cardassians, Wesley being a jerk, and that he ended up leaving with the Traveler. I would have to watch it again, which is not going to happen any time soon, since I don't own any DVDs and had to nuke my Netflix account after it was hacked.

Using the term "American Indians" is like saying they were "Europeans" - it's a big continent in terms of cultures and traditions and religious practices. Or if they just said they were "Africans." Again - huge continent, particularly in terms of cultures, traditions, and religious practices. You'll notice that they pinned Uhura's background down pretty specifically and it didn't hurt her any. Why couldn't they have done that with Chakotay?
 
You'll notice that they pinned Uhura's background down pretty specifically and it didn't hurt her any. Why couldn't they have done that with Chakotay?
Why should they? Not everyone should be representative of having their worth pinned down to one culture or its reference. It's like Chakotay is not good enough because he can't wave one banner.

I find that kind of insulting. That if you are not pure blood then you shouldn't be a character on a science fiction show.
 
Why should they? Not everyone should be representative of having their worth pinned down to one culture or its reference. It's like Chakotay is not good enough because he can't wave one banner.

I find that kind of insulting. That if you are not pure blood then you shouldn't be a character on a science fiction show.
OH, FFS!!! :scream:

You've been entirely missing the point here. It's not that he can't wave one banner. It's that he's waving a ton of banners that are totally irrelevant to the background the producers and writers gave him.
 
OH, FFS!!! :scream:

You've been entirely missing the point here. It's not that he can't wave one banner. It's that he's waving a ton of banners that are totally irrelevant to the background the producers and writers gave him.
Well no. You are missing the point. The producers did not intend to give him this Native American one note heritage that some would think validates his worth. They intentionally kept his background vague and in fact he was born on a colony. That gave them the wiggle room not to be scolded by people who think they know everything.
 
Is Uhura a "one note" character because her heritage was specifically pinpointed? No. With good writing and some research and competent advice from a real consultant rather than a fraudster, Chakotay wouldn't have been a one note character, either.

But they chose not to do it that way, and so you get a segment of the fans rolling their eyes about it.
 
I think you're joking, but that's a different episode.

I'm referring to the episode where Wesley becomes an @**hole, gains superpowers, then goes off gallivanting with a traveler.

Yes, I am wrong again, but how I remember the episode from almost 20 years ago last time I saw it, is Picard taking time explain to the audience, that "hundreds of years ago, these people were forcably relocated, so we should be sensitive about doing it again"

I now, finally, understand that Jean-Luc was talking about 19th century America being a prick, but it's astonishing that any one with a first class education, didn't already know all about the darker side of the Ancient West, that it needed being verbalized.
 
Is Uhura a "one note" character because her heritage was specifically pinpointed? No. With good writing and some research and competent advice from a real consultant rather than a fraudster, Chakotay wouldn't have been a one note character, either.

But they chose not to do it that way, and so you get a segment of the fans rolling their eyes about it.
I don't wish to get in an argument with you. What they gave Uhura was what they followed through with. Mind you I think her character on TOS was pretty background if you want to know the truth. Not because of her ethnicity though.

They could have had a university of blood line Native American consultants writing every script and it would change nothing about how Chakotay was never given one tribe or a pin pointed Native American reference to critique him on.

Roll your eyes all you want at some misguided attempt at diversity.
 
Yes, I am wrong again, but how I remember the episode from almost 20 years ago last time I saw it, is Picard taking time explain to the audience, that "hundreds of years ago, these people were forcably relocated, so we should be sensitive about doing it again"

I now, finally, understand that Jean-Luc was talking about 19th century America being a prick, but it's astonishing that any one with a first class education, didn't already know all about the darker side of the Ancient West, that it needed being verbalized.
Seems rather ridiculous that Picard with his French/European background would pass any kind of credible judgement on 19th Century America.
 
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

The first nation was, and still is really hard done by, so Captain Picard did not want to be remembered in the same breath as white men like Andrew Jackson or George Custer.
 
Yes, I am wrong again, but how I remember the episode from almost 20 years ago last time I saw it, is Picard taking time explain to the audience, that "hundreds of years ago, these people were forcably relocated, so we should be sensitive about doing it again"

I now, finally, understand that Jean-Luc was talking about 19th century America being a prick, but it's astonishing that any one with a first class education, didn't already know all about the darker side of the Ancient West, that it needed being verbalized.

Picard knew about the history. He was kind of shocked though to find out a Picard had been part of that history because the family line stuff has always been important to him.

Jason
 
Yeah sorry. My TNG stuff is limited in detail. No one wants to repeat the ills of history but the lessons (Guy reference) cannot be cherry picked either. In reaping the lessons you have to explore everything. No one is all good or all bad.
 
I don't wish to get in an argument with you.
Too late for that.

What they gave Uhura was what they followed through with. Mind you I think her character on TOS was pretty background if you want to know the truth. Not because of her ethnicity though.
Irrelevant. The point is that they gave her a specific background and followed through with it.

They could have had a university of blood line Native American consultants writing every script and it would change nothing about how Chakotay was never given one tribe or a pin pointed Native American reference to critique him on.

Roll your eyes all you want at some misguided attempt at diversity.
And... WHOOSH! as the point goes zooming overhead.

Your last sentence looks suspiciously like an accusation of racism on my part. I certainly hope I'm mistaken in that.

Seems rather ridiculous that Picard with his French/European background would pass any kind of credible judgement on 19th Century America.
Unlike some people, Picard learned from history. Or at least he learned from that bit of history. He still has a long way to go.
 
Too late for that.


Irrelevant. The point is that they gave her a specific background and followed through with it.


And... WHOOSH! as the point goes zooming overhead.

Your last sentence looks suspiciously like an accusation of racism on my part. I certainly hope I'm mistaken in that.


Unlike some people, Picard learned from history. Or at least he learned from that bit of history. He still has a long way to go.
Okay. If you wish to argue.

The point that they gave Uhura her background IS irrelevant to what they gave Chakotay. He is not her and had a different background.

How Picard even got into this I still wonder.
 
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