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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x08 - "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

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We get slapped in the face with whopping big red trouts again: alien lie detector tells Tyler is deceitful!

Makes sense for Cornwell to have taken a shuttle to the negotiation site: the episode where she went there took place right next to the negotiation place to begin with, that is, right where Sarek's runabout stalled. Why she didn't take a shuttle from her own ship is very, very unclear, though.

And if Tyler is a plant, and was supposed to escape with Lorca, and Lorca was a targeted abduction, and it's all part of L'Rell's plan, she must know it's all about the Discovery. But why would she further broadcast this to Cornwell? Or has she no choice, because of the Admiral's unfortunate choice of shuttles?

Saru apparently didn't quite manage 80 mph because he wasn't being chased... But the effect of him appearing fast was well done.

Timo Saloniemi
 
According to After Trek a lot was cut out of it, in particular more scenes between L'rell and Cornwell. I feel the episodes suffers as a result of the cuts.
It felt like it. I looked at the episode length and it was somewhere around 41 minutes. When you take out the previews and credits, it’s got to be under 40. Why on earth do they limit their run times when they are on a streaming site? I’m sure they hope to sell them in syndication someday, but man it’s one of the few benefits this show has being on the very underwhelming CBS All Access. Utilize the platform you are on to let your stories breathe instead of playing some long game with rerun revenue. Or just be on regular CBS so everyone has “access” to it.
 
Was Stamets' concsiousness travelling between mirror universes? He said something like "everything I know keeps changing", and calls Tilly captain at one point, something she may actually be in a mirror universe.

Anyone else catch this?
 
Considering the episodes preceding this one were in the range of 46 to 48 minutes, it is indeed strange that they edited this episode down to 41 minutes. Are they holding back on these scenes for a later episode?

I am not overly impressed with CBS All Access. I was watching Voyager on the site, finding for myself that the quality of the show's presentation - its appearance - unsatisifactory. It was definitely low-res and there was darkness in the images. I switched over to Hulu, to see the episodes. They have more of a high-res appearance, with the images brighter.

Though I have stopped watching "The Walking Dead", I have kept up with the reviews. Some of the reviews have described the action in some of the episodes in that series as moving the pieces on a game board, that the episode itself was a lull between events. This is how I would describe this Discovery episode. They are moving the pieces into position for the mid-season finale.

Discovery has the potential of being a great serialized series, if the people doing it had more finesse in their skills at writing. The writing is really crippling for this series.
 
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I'm enjoying this series. It's the only TV I watch other than college football.
People who keep talking about the writing being bad:
1. My wife watches TNG in the other room a lot lately and I can't help overhear it: WOW is that some bad writing and acting now! Like high-school-play bad.
2. I wish people would specify: what is "bad"? (I'm not disputing you.) "Crippling"?

II. I am a fairly educated person TRYING to make sense of it, but all this Klingon crap is really dull and confusing!! They look alike, sound alike; I get it, they are a more formal, stilted culture in their communication with each other (or the producers just thought it kewl). But if I wanted Game of Thrones, I'd watch . . . that. And I don't.

III. I'm on record saying I'm enjoying this serialized storytelling for a change. But as others have noted, I'll be unlikely to go back and watch an episode. With classic Trek you know you're getting "The One Where ____ ." 45 minutes and a resolution, now go cook supper or go to bed or whatever. There's peace and unity in that; just call me Saru.
 
That was... disappointing.

First of all, 41 minutes is an inexcusably short run time for a streaming-only show, and this particular episode could've clearly used some more room to breathe.

The opening space battle was nice — some well-framed action, some actual clear starship shots — although it seemed to take a peculiarly long time for that second torpedo to hit the Gagarin. But it was all downhill from there.

I had been looking forward to seeing a planetside story, after all the time the show has spent aboard ship, but the whole setup seemed very contrived (as did all the expository dialogue used to explain it). Is Starfleet's best shot at penetrating the Klingon cloaks really some technobabble "electromagnetic sonar" McGuffin from a previously unexplored planet? C'mon, seriously. As for incorporeal beings "at one" with their planet, they fall squarely into the "seen it before" category. And why (and how?) would those incorporeal beings have built a convenient wigwam perfectly sized for humanoids they've never met before?

The Klingon scenes were once again a chore to watch, thanks to the laborious marble-mouthed Klingonese (and the still-unsatisfying makeup and costumes), but more than that, they seem to have confused ambiguity with suspense. Why would Kol give someone he didn't trust free reign with his prize hostage? We don't know. Was L'Rell really trying to defect with Cornwell? We don't know. Did she actually kill Cornwell? We don't know. Why was there a room full of corpses on Kol's ship? We don't know. If she knew about that room enough to drag Cornwell there, why was L'Rell surprised at its contents? We don't know. Why didn't L'Rell just follow through on her plan and defect in her own ship, once she knew the Federation wouldn't kill her? We don't know. Why did Kol go through with the pointless loyalty ceremony if he was just planning to reveal that he knew L'Rell was betraying him? We don't know. How did he know L'Rell was betraying him? We don't know. All of these things could and should have been answered, and it would have made the episode far better. All that's really clear after all the tedium is that L'Rell wants to get aboard the Discovery for some reason, but if we had some coherent idea of her plan, of who she's trying to play and how, there'd be a lot more suspense involved in seeing how she pulls it off. The (brief) scenes in English between L'Rell and Cornwell were interesting, and if other posters are correct that more of these got edited out, that's a damn shame.

Back on the planet, Tyler and Burnham continue to have zero romantic chemistry. Saru's conversion seemed unconvincingly sudden. Even if we accept his complete change in motivations, his actual plan makes no sense — why lie to his shipmates and try to trap them there with him? Why not just say he wants to stay, and then make himself scarce? Why get violent with them, if he was actually feeling so peaceful? And oh yeah, how and why did the aliens teleport Tyler to just where he needed to be, a power they had not previously demonstrated, and which would've helped their friend Saru just a few minutes earlier?

And, seriously, why did Tyler and Burnham (never mind Lorca) forgive Saru — the ship's first officer, remember! — for his inexcusable betrayal so quickly and easily?

Meanwhile, in the background, we have the Stamets plot still going nowhere. His demeanor and behavior were interesting last week, but this week, frankly, they weren't. His character seems to have regressed, and, well, that's about all we know, because we really only got those two all-too-brief scenes with Tilly.

When other "prestige" shows (say Game of Thrones, for instance, or House of Cards) do scenes that are all dialogue between characters, with no immediate plot outcomes, setting up things to be revealed later, it's at least possible to discern what the characters are thinking about and trying to accomplish. That's where the drama and suspense come from. Here, that's missing, and a lot of these scenes just seem like marking time. If it were in service of a plot that was tight and compelling in its own right, that might be excusable — but this episode didn't have that either. Literally nothing of consequence happened, and it all ended in midair on a tepid cliffhanger with uncertain stakes.

Overall, sad to say, by my lights this was the worst since the two-part season opener.
 
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Saru's motivations were a little unclear through the episode but I think they just pulled it off with the final scene in sickbay and it played true to his setup as a character. Someone who desperately wants a life free from fear finds an oasis away from a terrifying war, it makes a kind of sense that he would be drawn to it.

There's a really interesting episode in that, but this wasn't it.
 
Seems this is a Q&A session first and foremost...

And why (and how?) would those incorporeal beings have built a convenient wigwam perfectly sized for humanoids they've never met before?

Why would they build an inconvenient wigwam imperfectly sized? Obviously, they wanted to be courteous hosts.

Why would Kol give someone he didn't trust free reign with his prize hostage? We don't know.

Why not? He's supposedly done with Cornwell, in terms of how far his own means can carry him; by letting L'Rell use her as part of her own designs, Kol gets information out of two of his enemies at once, and for free.

Was L'Rell really trying to defect with Cornwell? We don't know. Did she actually kill Cornwell? We don't know.

And this should worry us why? We learn this next week at the very latest. Any sooner, and she wouldn't be much of a master of deceit.

Why was there a room full of corpses on Kol's ship?

...Not Kol's ship, except in terms of current possession. It's T'Kumva's ship. The one full of corpses, as we know.

We don't know. If she knew about that room enough to drag Cornwell there, why was L'Rell surprised at its contents? We don't know.

It was the room with the sarcophagi. An extremely logical place for placing the dead - and for finagling an exit for a supposed corpse, considering what happens to the sarcophagi.

Finding dead people in the mortuary wasn't supposed to be surprising. Finding out they're one's old friends was.

Why didn't L'Rell just follow through on her plan and defect in her own ship, once she knew the Federation wouldn't kill her? We don't know.

Because her cover was blown; even Kol wouldn't be thick enough to fall for the "she tried to escape" story. Time for Plan B, and she better make sure it doesn't look like a Plan B to Kol.

Why did Kol go through with the pointless loyalty ceremony if he was just planning to reveal that he knew L'Rell was betraying him? We don't know. How did he know L'Rell was betraying him? We don't know. All of these things could and should have been answered, and it would have made the episode far better.

Seems rather pointless. Of course the master of the ship ought to know what happens aboard - do we really have to be told the exact positioning of all the microphones and cameras? And letting the opponent wiggle is Kol's MO: he bowed to Voq and all.

All that's really clear after all the tedium is that L'Rell wants to get aboard the Discovery for some reason, but if we had some coherent idea of her plan, of who she's trying to play and how, there'd be a lot more suspense involved in seeing how she pulls it off.

Why? We're not supposed to root for her. She's supposed to give us a series of nasty surprises and sucker punches, being the main villainess and all. Vague is in vogue for baddies like that.

Saru's conversion seemed unconvincingly sudden. Even if we accept his complete change in motivations, his actual plan makes no sense — why lie to his shipmates and try to trap them there with him? Why not just say he wants to stay, and then make himself scarce? Why get violent with them, if he was actually feeling so peaceful?

These might be mysteries if we thought the aliens were good guys who lived in perfect harmony and wanted peace. The very reason they (make Saru) say so is a big reason to believe the exact opposite.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I guess I'd like fewer things to be confusing. That's just me.

And those of you think Tyler is "someone else": is that serious or a humor meme making fun of Trek conspiracists?

If serious, how would that have been accomplished (physically speaking)?
 
To echo the above, we don't know.

But there was that bit of the camera needlessly lingering on Kol's uncredited female thug in the end. Was that Cornwell, making good her escape, and L'Rell's? Perhaps L'Rell has a machine that goes Ping! and changes species like that.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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When Tyler puts his hand on the green crystal and then quickly pulls it back, Saru's spider senses are tingling and as his tendril-like sensor are displayed,
he says with certainty;

"Your intentions are false"
"you have tried to distract me"

There is a change in his voice and he goes on guessing :
"to delay me" (from getting to Bernham)

The Kelpiens(saru's) threat ganglia does not go of when people lie, they only splay out when they sense danger.
Or as Saru puts it ;

"We were biologically determined for one purpose and one purpose alone – to sense the coming of death."
-Saru

Tyler is the coming of death
Tyler is indeed Voq...
 
And those of you think Tyler is "someone else": is that serious or a humor meme making fun of Trek conspiracists?

Serious. It's pretty clear the guy who plays Tyler also played Voq the Albino. Does that mean anything? I don't know. Tyler is the most human guy to ever human, filled with nonviolent emotions like hope and a love of lake houses. Neither of which are very Klingon. Also, dude got killed last week with a pocket knife to the back. It usually takes more than that to kill a Klink. (TBH, it usually takes more than that to kill a human being)

On the other hand, they've had 2-3 "hint" scenes since he showed up. First was Burnham collapsing when the two first shook hands (turns out it was Sarek) and the crystal thing mentioned right above me. The scenes feel deliberate.

My personal guess: the whole thing is a fakeout.
 
I was -and I never thought I'd say this- actually a bit disappointed... Still liked the episode, but I didn't have that 'wow'-feeling I had with just about every of the previous episodes. Somehow I expected this to be a very emotional Saru episode, but it really wasn't. Going to watch it again tonight, hopefully I'll feel different. Saw the preview for next week's episode, and it looks pretty action packed, I hope in a good way... Not too fond of the Kol character; I think he is bordering a 2-D villain, and he reminds me (especially in the way he uses his voice) of one my least favourite ST villains: Dolim from ENT....
This is probably the most negative post I've ever made regarding Trek...
 
(Posting without reading other comments first.)

Well, it felt rather disjointed. The conflict on the planet was not particularly interesting and I really have no idea what's going on with the Klingons, that part was very confusing.

This reminded me of 'This side of Paradise' and the ending hinted that we might get something like 'Errand of Mercy' next.

It was not bad, but not particularly good either. Perhaps it will become retroactively better with the next episode, but for now in voted 5.
 
I'm sort of thinking that after we've seen this two-parter in its entirety, we'll go "It really should have been a glorious one-parter with X and Y completely dropped". Much in there that's good but very poorly handled - for now...

Timo Saloniemi
 
I guess I'd like fewer things to be confusing. That's just me.

And those of you think Tyler is "someone else": is that serious or a humor meme making fun of Trek conspiracists?

If serious, how would that have been accomplished (physically speaking)?

http://comicbook.com/startrek/2017/10/31/star-trek-discovery-is-ash-tyler-voq/#1

Meh.

The Klingon Augment plague made them all 90 percent human, so they've been trying to get that out of the bloodlines for a century now.
 
Tyler-as-Voq must be a fake-out. No production of this scale could be managed that incompetently.

Well, unless Josh Trank were involved.
 
Really? "Are they dead?!?!" is a time honoured cliffhanger technique. I near guarantee that was deliberate. And on sci-fi, you can usually assume that if there is any ambiguity at all, they're not dead.
You are right that it's a common thing in TV shows. I'm not convinced though that it was done deliberately here. To me it seemed more like they didn't make that point very clear.

Georgiou was pretty explicit, no life signs detected, stabbed through the heart. They left her behind so they could have them eat her for extra nastiness points.
And yet a lot of people here were wondering if she had survived, because the show seemed to make a point about them not being able to beam over her body. It was a very similar thing, really, where the way they put it together made it an ambiguous thing.

That was... disappointing.

First of all, 41 minutes is an inexcusably short run time for a streaming-only show, and this particular episode could've clearly used some more room to breathe.

The opening space battle was nice — some well-framed action, some actual clear starship shots — although it seemed to take a peculiarly long time for that second torpedo to hit the Gagarin. But it was all downhill from there.

I had been looking forward to seeing a planetside story, after all the time the show has spent aboard ship, but the whole setup seemed very contrived (as did all the expository dialogue used to explain it). Is Starfleet's best shot at penetrating the Klingon cloaks really some technobabble "electromagnetic sonar" McGuffin from a previously unexplored planet? C'mon, seriously. As for incorporeal beings "at one" with their planet, they fall squarely into the "seen it before" category. And why (and how?) would those incorporeal beings have built a convenient wigwam perfectly sized for humanoids they've never met before?

The Klingon scenes were once again a chore to watch, thanks to the laborious marble-mouthed Klingonese (and the still-unsatisfying makeup and costumes), but more than that, they seem to have confused ambiguity with suspense. Why would Kol give someone he didn't trust free reign with his prize hostage? We don't know. Was L'Rell really trying to defect with Cornwell? We don't know. Did she actually kill Cornwell? We don't know. Why was there a room full of corpses on Kol's ship? We don't know. If she knew about that room enough to drag Cornwell there, why was L'Rell surprised at its contents? We don't know. Why didn't L'Rell just follow through on her plan and defect in her own ship, once she knew the Federation wouldn't kill her? We don't know. Why did Kol go through with the pointless loyalty ceremony if he was just planning to reveal that he knew L'Rell was betraying him? We don't know. How did he know L'Rell was betraying him? We don't know. All of these things could and should have been answered, and it would have made the episode far better. All that's really clear after all the tedium is that L'Rell wants to get aboard the Discovery for some reason, but if we had some coherent idea of her plan, of who she's trying to play and how, there'd be a lot more suspense involved in seeing how she pulls it off. The (brief) scenes in English between L'Rell and Cornwell were interesting, and if other posters are correct that more of these got edited out, that's a damn shame.

Back on the planet, Tyler and Burnham continue to have zero romantic chemistry. Saru's conversion seemed unconvincingly sudden. Even if we accept his complete change in motivations, his actual plan makes no sense — why lie to his shipmates and try to trap them there with him? Why not just say he wants to stay, and then make himself scarce? Why get violent with them, if he was actually feeling so peaceful? And oh yeah, how and why did the aliens teleport Tyler to just where he needed to be, a power they had not previously demonstrated, and which would've helped their friend Saru just a few minutes earlier?

And, seriously, why did Tyler and Burnham (never mind Lorca) forgive Saru — the ship's first officer, remember! — for his inexcusable betrayal so quickly and easily?

Meanwhile, in the background, we have the Stamets plot still going nowhere. His demeanor and behavior were interesting last week, but this week, frankly, they weren't. His character seems to have regressed, and, well, that's about all we know, because we really only got those two all-too-brief scenes with Tilly.

When other "prestige" shows (say Game of Thrones, for instance, or House of Cards) do scenes that are all dialogue between characters, with no immediate plot outcomes, setting up things to be revealed later, it's at least possible to discern what the characters are thinking about and trying to accomplish. That's where the drama and suspense come from. Here, that's missing, and a lot of these scenes just seem like marking time. If it were in service of a plot that was tight and compelling in its own right, that might be excusable — but this episode didn't have that either. Literally nothing of consequence happened, and it all ended in midair on a tepid cliffhanger with uncertain stakes.

Overall, sad to say, by my lights this was the worst since the two-part season opener.
Very well put and almost exactly how I felt about the episode.

But there was that bit of the camera needlessly lingering on Kol's uncredited female thug in the end. Was that Cornwell, making good her escape, and L'Rell's? Perhaps L'Rell has a machine that goes Ping! and changes species like that.
I must have watched a different episode. :wtf:
 
A slight step down from last week, so about an 8. It was a joy to see Burnham, Saru and Tyler on an alien world, and this one looked pretty alien. The first part down on the planet was very good, though Saru becoming influenced by the species had a familiar smell to it.

I think what also dragged it down a little was the Klingon story. I'm sure that's what I said a couple of weeks ago as well when I actually fell asleep to one scene. It does seem like things are moving forward in that regard, so here's hoping.
 
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