Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

[Agony_Boothb]

We're debating whether or not leaving a civilian behind to be tortured and possibly killed is acceptable. There should be no fucking debate at all about this kind of treatment.

Yet here we are. Thanks Discovery!

This isn't the first time that we have seen starfleet officers make questionable or outright wrong decisions.

Considering Mudd was pumping starfleet officers for information to give to the enemy and then allowing those officers to be beaten to death so that he could live without being tortured is pretty despicable. Nah, he can stay where he is.

 

[BillJ]

Considering Mudd was pumping starfleet officers for information to give to the enemy and then allowing those officers to be beaten to death so that he could live without being tortured is pretty despicable.

Of course it is. But, in a civilized society, you err on the side of being human and allow a court to determine his fate.

 

[Nyotarules]

COMPUTER: Offense record. Smuggling. Sentence suspended. Transport of stolen goods. Purchase of space vessel with counterfeit currency. Sentences, psychiatric treatment, effectiveness disputed.
(From TOS)

If money does not exist in TOS then buying counterfeit currency should be as harmless as owning monopoly cash....

 

[rahullak]

When I watched the episode and that particular scene, I didn't feel like Lorca was committing a crime. However, now that people are mentioning it, I still don't feel it was a crime per se. I look at it as the writers deliberately making Lorca have a darker personality. I can imagine Picard in the same situation: he would have saved Mudd only to have him thrown into the brig of his ship to await whatever consequence is deemed worthy by Federation law. But then again, we're dealing with Lorca not Picard, and wartime not peacetime.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Of course it is. But, in a civilized society, you err on the side of being human and allow a court to determine his fate.

Klingon court will do.

 

[Feron]

Once the Starfleet people are gone, the Klingons should have no further use for him. So, they would likely dispose of him in proper Klingon fashion.

He would be useful with any other Federation prisoners now in their custody or captured in the future. Why would they kill him?

 

[Refuge]

We're debating whether or not leaving a civilian behind to be tortured and possibly killed is acceptable. There should be no fucking debate at all about this kind of treatment.

Yet here we are. Thanks Discovery!

I agree that it's revealing to see the reaction. It makes me think about our justice system. At any given time someone accused of a heinous crime is processed through the courts, we don't bypass that.

 

[Feron]

Of course it is. But, in a civilized society, you err on the side of being human and allow a court to determine his fate.

So do you consider a Klingon prison ship to be "civilized society"? Where is the courtroom located on it where Lorca can plead his case?

 

[Nyotarules]

You need to rewatch Chain of Command because Picard didn't break. That was the entire point of the episode.

If Beverly Crusher was there stripped naked and being tortured as well, I suspect he would have. Er no just remembered the episode Lessons, he would have let her die.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I agree that it's revealing to see the reaction. It makes me think about our justice system. At any given time someone accused of a heinous crime is processed through the courts, we don't bypass that.

Mudd was in prison for violating Klingon territory. He would have to face their judicial system, not the Federations

 

[Mudd]

So do you consider a Klingon prison ship to be "civilized society"? Where is the courtroom located on it where Lorca can plead his case?

A Klingon prison ship is whatever the writers of this show decide it will be - and so far, that's "whatever makes the Klingons the most hateful and repellent so that we're cool with killing them."

 

[Guy Gardener]

You need to rewatch Chain of Command because Picard didn't break. That was the entire point of the episode.

Dude.

[Ready room]

(Shakespeare is back on his lectern)
PICARD: I, er, I don't know where to begin. It was
TROI: I read your report.
PICARD: What I didn't put in the report was that at the end he gave me a choice between a life of comfort or more torture. All I had to do was to say that I could see five lights, when in fact, there were only four.
TROI: You didn't say it?
PICARD: No, no, but I was going to. I would have told him anything. Anything at all. But more than that, I believed that I could see five lights.

 

[Feron]

A Klingon prison ship is whatever the writers of this show decide it will be - and so far, that's "whatever makes the Klingons the most hateful and repellent so that we're cool with killing them."

So if you have such a strong dislike of the fantasy world that the writers have created, why do you insist on staying there?

 

[Rahul]

What evidence do you have that Mudd would be tortured or killed? He was helping the Klingons, he was on their side.

What evidence do you have that he was a high-ranking collaborator, able to make his own deals with the klingons?

If we take stuff at face value, he was a prisoner like the others as well. Difference being, he wasn't military, the others were, he was a dick, and that he sold his fellow inmates out purely to not be fucking tortured to death.

And that was seen as "reason enough" for Lorca to leave him behind. For torture and death. What the hell?

 

[Rahul]

It's trying to shut down people expressing a critical reaction.. the next helpful suggestion is to say "Hey if you don't like what you see don't watch". Which roughly translated means, don't share your non-gushing support of this show.

The main character has thus far tortured a life form. We've been told he killed an entire crew under his command. He left a prisoner to suffer. I think it's worth complaining about, lol.

Hahaha, point proven fucking again :

So if you have such a strong dislike of the fantasy world that the writers have created, why do you insist on staying there?

Yeez. Not liking a certain aspect of a show doesn't immediately makes one a "hater" of said show! Just someone who is capable of critical thinking.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The main character has thus far tortured a life form. We've been told he killed an entire crew under his command. He left a prisoner to suffer. I think it's worth complaining about, lol.

The internal consistent logic of the character, is that Lorca should have killed Mudd to spare him more Klingon torture. Mudd lives, because either Lorca killed his crew becuase he loved them, and he does not love Mudd, or Lorca is lying about killing his crew.

So if you have such a strong dislike of the fantasy world that the writers have created, why do you insist on staying there?

It wasn't a prison ship, if there were only three prisoners on board, in one cell.

If it really was a prison ship, rather than a prison transport, or ship that happened to have 2 prisoners for months, and another prisoner for a couple hours... What if there were dozens of more cells? And maybe a hundred prisoners?

Lorca left them behind too.

 

[Gonzo]

This isn't a 'Discovery' fan forum. This is a 'Star Trek' fan forum. Discovery is Star Trek. In fact, it's new Star Trek. You kinda' have to live with fans of the older Trek coming over to see "what's new". It seems some people here would be way better off to check for a seperate, "Discovery only" Internet Forum.



Condeming leaving someone behind for torture and death REALLY shouldn't be one of those cases where one has to argue about wether or not to condemn it...

In a civilised society something like that should be self-evident.

Except it didn't look like Mudd had been tortured at all in fact he didn't have a single mark on him and he most certainly wasn't dead either, in fact he looked well fed and far too overconfident for someone who is on a Klingon prison ship.

Lorca knows how Klingons treat their prisoners, I doubt it took Lorca more than a few seconds to realise what was going on with Mudd.

Mudd didn't even bat an eyelid when the guards came, he knew he was safe.

Mudd only started to bleat and play the victim after he realised he was going to be left behind.

We both know Mudd is going to be fine and will continue to make himself useful to the highest bidder.

I appreciate you don't like it but in this instance I am absolutely fine with it.

 

[Rahul]

Except it didn't look like Mudd had been tortured at all in fact he didn't have a single mark on him and he most certainly wasn't dead either, in fact he looked well fed and far too overconfident for someone who is on a Klingon prison ship.

Lorca knows how Klingons treat their prisoners, I doubt it took Lorca more than a few seconds to realise what was going on with Mudd.

Mudd didn't even bat an eyelid when the guards came, he knew he was safe.

Mudd only started to bleat and play the victim after he realised he was going to be left behind.

We both know Mudd is going to be fine and will continue to make himself useful to the highest bidder.

I appreciate you don't like it but in this instance I am absolutely fine with it.

You DID realize Mudd was scared as hell when it looked like as if Lorca and Tyler would choose him for the first time to be tortured?

This guy is just overly antagonistic towards Starfleet officers. Something nobody could hold against him, since, at least in the eyes of the public, Starfleet clearly is partly to blame that there is a war in the first place.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

What evidence do you have that he was a high-ranking collaborator, able to make his own deals with the klingons?

If we take stuff at face value, he was a prisoner like the others as well. Difference being, he wasn't military, the others were, he was a dick, and that he sold his fellow inmates out purely to not be fucking tortured to death.

And that was seen as "reason enough" for Lorca to leave him behind. For torture and death. What the hell?

Letting someone else be tortured so you won't be is pretty despicable and inexcusable. Regardless of their background.

Considering he was willing to do the same to Lorca and Tyler until they came up with an escape plan. I'd say he got what was coming to him,

 

[Rahul]

Letting someone else be tortured so you won't be is pretty despicable and inexcusable. Regardless of their background.

Considering he was willing to do the same to Lorca and Tyler until they came up with an escape plan. I'd say he got what was coming to him,

At which point we are again at the point where it's obvious you clearly have no fucking clue what torture in real life entails. And I have to, again, recommend a certain video people really should watch as a starting point to educate themselves:

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Everybody will do anything to evade torture. Even if that entails "selling out" your fellow inmates. That's what torture does. That's what would happen to anybody. Even Picard. And especially someone without military training.