Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

[JirinPanthosa]

I'm all for dark scifi, even dark Trek, but for me it only works when you at least have some kind of character to root for. Now we're basically treating the USS Equinox as standard, torturing creatures to death for military advantage.

And Seru needs to stop whipping out the predator/prey metaphor every time he needs to call someone a jerk, he's laying it on kinda thick.

The difference between Adama and Lorca is that Adama always treated his moral bargains as a regrettable necessity. Lorca acts like morals are stupid to begin with.

It's like, yeah, this is probably how real humans would behave in the Star Trek universe. That's all well and good but why the hell should I root for the protagonists if they are neither morally better nor interesting enough to make me want to root for the bad guy.

 

[Rahul]

^^^^^THIS.
Way better formulated than I could with so few words.

 

[Refuge]

Seriously:
How good would you feel about Marines leaving a civilian behind in the hands of ISIS, because he may have sold out some secrets to protect himself?

That's the level of inhumane behaviour you're arguing in favour for!

I agree with you. It's like we (some of us) are hoping that the writers have this twist to the story that justifies certain abhorrent acts. Lorca killing his crew - fingers crossed he didn't or he was forced off the ship. Lorca leaves Mudd - fingers crossed Mudd is a spy with a mission or some such thing. However face value? Leaving Mudd was cruel.

 

[Butters]

I rated it seven, but I'm probably being generous because its trek. Late to the party because of a faulty Chromecast, but worth the wait. Oozing with continuity porn as always, and full of surprises. Yeah, not the best one, but liked this.

 

[Refuge]

That's a pretty horrible moving of the goalpost.

"People only complain about the main characters being war criminals because they don't like the show".

It's trying to shut down people expressing a critical reaction.. the next helpful suggestion is to say "Hey if you don't like what you see don't watch". Which roughly translated means, don't share your non-gushing support of this show.

The main character has thus far tortured a life form. We've been told he killed an entire crew under his command. He left a prisoner to suffer. I think it's worth complaining about, lol.

 

[137th Gebirg]

You're close, but you're missing the first essential part of the argument.. If you want to make the absolutely, positively, definitive, incontrovertible argument, it's got to be:

NOPE. Because REASONS!

Quite right. I neglected to include the infamous CumberNope! I sit corrected.

 

[Mudd]

Lorca acts like morals are stupid to begin with.

As do many fans of Discovery. Just read the discussions of the war crimes and cruelty committed by the show's protagonists.

 

[Hey Missy]

So why was L'Rell on that prison ship instead of wherever we last saw her with Voq?
Also I didn't realize it was L'Rell until I checked Memory-Alpha, she seemed to act like a completely different character too (she didn't strike me as a sedistress with a human fetish).

 

[Rahul]

I agree with you. It's like we (some of us) are hoping that the writers have this twist to the story that justifies certain abhorrent acts. Lorca killing his crew - fingers crossed he didn't or he was forced off the ship. Lorca leaves Mudd - fingers crossed Mudd is a spy with a mission or some such thing. However face value? Leaving Mudd was cruel.

I'm pretty sure Lorca won't make it out od the first season alive.

The big question is now:
A) British big name actor being the "surprise" villain, or
B) Heroic sacrifice

My money is on B), in which case I could live better with his evil deeds, him being evil and all. Would be pretty by-the-numbers (mad Starfleet Captain instead of mad Admiral). But if it's the former, I'm going to be pissed. Glorification of someone commiting war crimes and all that, even if they make it a point of him being a "troubled" character that turns to the light in his final moments.

 

[Borgminister]

Fuller wanted an anthology series; this could be a semi-anthology series, keeping the ship and having crew turnover to go along with a different story line. Like Xindi and season 4 of Enterprise, without the cast turnover.

 

[Refuge]

I'm pretty sure Lorca won't make it out od the first season alive.

The big question is now:
A) British big name actor being the "surprise" villain, or
B) Heroic sacrifice

My money is on B), in which case I could live better with his evil deeds, him being evil and all. Would be pretty by-the-numbers (mad Starfleet Captain instead of mad Admiral). But if it's the former, I'm going to be pissed. Glorification of someone commiting war crimes and all that, even if they make it a point of him being a "troubled" character that turns to the light in his final moments.

I have to say that separating the impact of the actor's presence from the character he's playing might be the second challenge this show has had for me. The first has been trying to reconcile watching a souless Star Trek.

Isaacs and Lorca are a bit of a lightening rod. That in a way would be another reason he might go.. he's overshadowing the lead.

 

[Succubint]

Or perhaps we're just simply responding to the criticisms with our own passionate points of view? No one's trying to shut anyone down, disagreement is a two way street. If you have a criticism, be prepared to defend it.

I disagree that Mudd should have been allowed to escape with them. He was fingering other prisoners to die. He had hardly a scratch on him, appeared healthy and well fed, not starving or traumatized but the other Starfleet guy in the cell was clearly badly hurt, curled up in a bloody fetal position and Mudd *STILL* fingered him to take the beating, resulting in the man's death. If he'd been a decent man, he could have at least given the guy a break from the torture. The man was pure self-serving scum. He would have sold out (and did) anyone else in the cell to the Klingons to save his own precious hide. He was caught being a collaborator and a traitor to the Federation.

We have no proof he was ever broken, ever tortured badly, except for his word. And he's proven himself a liar more than once. For all we know, he was a plant (working off his debt), tasked with getting intel from any of the Starfleet prisoners who got put in with him.

There is no doubt in my mind he would have alerted the guards the first chance he got if the escape got difficult. You could not trust him with your life.

That's doesn't mean I wanted him to be tortured or killed, but the choices he made had consequences. Lorca was in survival mode and being pragmatic. Mudd was a definite liability. If he was so well treated up to this point, then he could talk himself out of any punishment, right?

I'm pretty sure 1st season Major Kira would have left him there to rot or shot him, with her experience of the Cardassian Occupation coloring her perspective. Hypothetically, would she be evil too?

Lorca was making a hard call, his assessment of the man meant he couldn't be trusted in a last ditch escape attempt. Notice that Tyler didn't speak up for him at all. Didn't even suggest taking him along. Tyler, who's been in that cell with Mudd much longer than Lorca. Not a word in his defense. Clearly he felt the same way. Which is why he didn't even tell Mudd of the intent to escape until the attempt was well underway. Is Tyler evil too?

If the odds had been more in their favor, sure I would have preferred Lorca to take a chance. But it was do or die and I am fine with his decision given the circumstances. I don't have to like it, but I can understand why he made that call. Lorca is not another Picard or Georgiou. He seems well aware of that fact, too. He still appears to regret whatever happened to the Buran. Can't wait to find out more about that back story. The fact that he refuses to get his eyes fixed and opts to suffer daily painful eye injections to function and to remind him of his past failure adds an interesting nuance to the character. I hope we can dig deeper into his psyche. He's turning into a fascinating, and compelling character in my opinion. A different sort of captain to examine over an entire season's arc.

 

[Feron]

You guys are horrible.

You know what you are argiung in favour for are war crimes?
And not even the little known ones, like "putting bombs on dead enemy soldiers to prey upon them when they are retrieving their dead". No. The real serious ones. Like leaving behind people for Torture and death for no apparent reason other than "they don't look trustworthy". Seriously. I can't believe I have to argue in favour of basic human rights. On a Star Trek forum no less.

Sorry, but if you are escaping a prison where you are vastly outnumbered, you have NO obligation to rescue a person who has already collaborated with the Klingons to harm you.

As has been said, if Mudd had been in the hallway with L'Rell, he would have shouted and pointed in the direction of Lorca and shouted: "There he is! Kill him now!"

Those who are consumed in their hatred for Captain Lorca also are ignoring one possibility that I have not seen anyone mention yet.

All of the comments regarding the fact that Lorca only wounded L'Rell have been along the lines of: "He must be a bad shot! He only wounded her!" or "He must be secretly working with the Klingons because he didn't kill her!"

I have not seen a single denouncer of "evil" Lorca address this possibility:

-- Is it possible that Lorca deliberately only wounded L'Rell because she was at that moment UNARMED and did not pose a direct threat to him since he had a weapon? Once she had been wounded, she was on the ground screaming and Lorca was able to help Tyler back up to his feet and for them to run away and escape.

He didn't kill Mudd even though he could have, and some have argued that it would have been justified to do so to a traitor -- which Mudd without any question whatsoever was a traitor.

And he did not kill L'Rell, a person who just a short while ago had been viciously torturing him.

So why is no one praising Lorca for not exacting revenge and killing L'Rell? He certainly could have done so.

Plus, for die-hard progressive fans of the TNG way of doing things, what was so bad about leaving Mudd with the Klingons? In multiculturalism, aren't all cultures of equal value? Mudd had certainly demonstrated that he was completely capable of adapting to the Klingon way of doing things, so why do you feel he was in danger?

 

[Borgminister]

Mudd is in league with the Klingons; on Discovery, he'd have been looking out for himself at the expense of that crew. Best leave him on that ship where he can continue collaborating.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Everyone breaks.

Picard broke.

Mudd however, isn't loyal enough to anything to be unbroken at any point.

Although...

Mudd was an "unpredictable" element in a pageant, unless he wasn't.

His level of collaboration may have been a lot more indepth than we thought, where Mudd knew that Tyler is Voq, and his job was to seem like a shady prick to legitimize Voq as a Federation hero worth saving.

Otherwise there were a lot of moving parts to have kept Voq and Mudd in a cell, for weeks, wondering when there was a good opportunity to catch Lorca, unless any Starfleet Captain would have done?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't have a problem with Lorca's leaving Mudd behind. (Loved Rainn Wilson's performance of Harry Mudd). And I think, if it were a direct threat to survival of the civilization like it was for In The Pale Moonlight, I think you could possibly justify amoral behavior. But Sisko was internally tortured by what he'd done even knowing his actions saved the Federation. This is the beginning of the war where it doesn't really seem like the Federation is particularly outgunned. They're not anywhere close to 'Survival of the species' level threat.

What I do really like about Discovery so far is the analogies drawn between the Federation's expansionism and the way third world cultures view America. A lot of people are comparing the Klingons to Trump supporters, but no, they're not Trump supporters, they're ISIS. They're acting on a narrative that the Federation are cultural imperialists come to conquer them by absorbing their culture and controlling their economy. I think Discovery has raised a lot of interesting themes to explore.

Just, for me to enjoy a show, you need to do at least one of two things. 1. Make me care about the characters, get me emotionally involved in their fate. Or 2. Intellectually interest me.

Discovery intellectually interests me a little bit, and has not made me care about the characters at all. (Orville the exact opposite, has made me care about the characters a little bit, but has not intellectually interested me at all). Frankly, if you're doing #2 and not #1 the standards are a lot higher to make the show enjoyable than if you're doing #1 and not #2. If your characters aren't likable you have to be *really really* intellectually stimulating.

 

[Succubint]

Likability is so subjective though. We have people on this same forum, or even same thread with wildly varying views on who is or isn't likable, who is or isn't interesting/compelling, who is or isn't rage-inducing annoying or an irredeemable asshole and so on. One viewers best Trek character ever is another's complete dud waste of screen time.

 

[The Habs Fan]

It's trying to shut down people expressing a critical reaction.. the next helpful suggestion is to say "Hey if you don't like what you see don't watch". Which roughly translated means, don't share your non-gushing support of this show.

The main character has thus far tortured a life form. We've been told he killed an entire crew under his command. He left a prisoner to suffer. I think it's worth complaining about, lol.

There’s nothing wrong with well thought out criticism. It makes for good debate. I just have a problem with those few posters (there’s only a couple of them) who find any little thing to complain about in order to confirm their belief that Star Trek Discovery is not good (which is a belief they formed before it even had aired an episode). And now they just come across as trolls.

 

[Refuge]

Face value (that is not projecting a scenario we don't know for sure), it was morally wrong for Lorca to leave Mudd to torture and certain death. There is no justification.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Face value (that is not projecting a scenario we don't know for sure), it was morally wrong for Lorca to leave Mudd to torture and certain death. There is no justification.

Mudd's a Klingon asset. They'll use him again. Torture probably isn't a good way to keep an asset happy.