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Discovery starship discussion [SPOILERS]

Picard for one would be an obvious "outsider" to the business of space combat - he's famous for having spent a lot of time aboard an antiquated vessel tasked with deep space work, and as a consequence no doubt vectored away from any serious combat. And then he somehow ends up aboard the Federation Flagship, which is an asset too important to be involved in wars.

Georgiou, too, flies a museum piece. Perhaps she's thus sent to open clogged wells while her colleagues desperately fight the Tarn, the Gorn and the Morn?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Picard for one would be an obvious "outsider" to the business of space combat - he's famous for having spent a lot of time aboard an antiquated vessel tasked with deep space work, and as a consequence no doubt vectored away from any serious combat.
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I don't agree. In "The Wounded" the dialogue with Troi "Running captain? That doesn't sound like you" would seem to suggest that Picard had a pretty formidable reputation in starship combat. And the solution he came up with completely on the fly to defeat he Ferengi vessel (The Picard Maneuver) speaks of someone who knew how to handle a ship in battle.
 
...I for one am looking forward to DSC showering us in a hailstorm of "new evidence" and forcing a rethink of fan assumptions. We're just plain bound to get a lot of new data - while OTOH it's not going to contradict onscreen canon in any immediately obvious way, because

a) things like Memory Alpha make it truly trivial to get these things straight, and
b) the makers of DSC are just the sort to run their ideas through a Memory Alpha search first.

We're past the era when canon took effort, and well into the era when canon is the cheapest way to show off and gain extra brownie points.

Timo Saloniemi
 
In battle, yes. In war? Sisko and Janeway remniscence on past war experiences specifically. Picard never does, even though he obviously has experienced combat.

Kirk is interesting here, too. Clearly a well-known space fighter whom even Garth of Izar respects for this, and a self-designated soldier - but is he a war veteran? DSC will probably tell, even if indirectly.

Timo Saloniemi
 
[Spoilers through Episode 1x05, "Choose Your Pain"]

Thread for Episode 4 found here:

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/dsc-1x04-starships-and-technology-spoilers.290485/

Back on the r.a.s.tech newsgroup and then the Flare forums I had a whale of a time posting thoughts and observations of the (mostly Starfleet) ships and tech for every episode, in the context of how Starfleet at the Federation works. Planning on continuing doing so here for Discovery. All are welcome to post their own as well!

On the lookout for:

- The spore drive becoming routine - or IS it? We have to believe that sporing around the galaxy will not be the norm by the end of this war... Hints will have to be dropped soon.

- The chain of command when the CO is missing. Saru IS in command, but who's the second officer, especially since the heir-apparent Commander Landry came under the Bear's Care last week? And will people stroll into Lorca's ready rom as easily as Riker or LaForge have done whenever Picard heads out unplanned?

- Non sarcophagus Klingon ship stuff. The trailer suggests we see more Klingon sets that are built, and not carved; is this another ship we're on, or is it just the S-ship's bridge / cathedral / art room that is that ornate?

And more!

Mark
 
As mentioned, I've merged the previously episodic threads into this one for main discussion. :) I apologize if this seems a bit weird to anyone, but I think it will be easier having only one thread to keep up with. :D
 
If they show it at distance there is really no need to change it much, you cannot see any detail anyway.
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And yet they went through the trouble of actually designing all of those ships in detail, even the ones we didn't get to see clearly. We're not talking about low-res easter eggs no one is meant to see in the first place (e.g. the Milenium Falcon in First Contact). If they're putting a Constitution class ship IN THE STORY, it will be designed with the Discovery aesthetic. Because that's just the way televised science fiction is, it's just the way art departments are.

At this point, half of the people working in Discovery's art department weren't even born yet when Wrath of Khan came out. It's unlikely they would cling stylistically to a design that hasn't been "modern" since their grandparents were in college.
 
Most of the Admirals we see and the few combat captains seem to operate on Excelsior-class starships and later Nebula-class starships in he 2360s and 2370s. Picard in known more for finding either a diplomatic solution, or allowing the size and potential power of the Galaxy-class starship diffusion the situation without warfare.

We don't have a real idea of what Starfleet was like in the 2260s outside the use of Constitution-class starships. The 2250s seem to have a bunch of different classes of starship in service, but given how quickly the Klingons seem to be going through them, I wonder if any of those classes survive into the 2260s in anything more than token numbers....even less than the dozen starships like USS Enterprise, which according to the Romulans is one of Starfleet's finest ships.
 
[Spoilers through Episode 1x05, "Choose Your Pain"]

- The chain of command when the CO is missing. Saru IS in command, but who's the second officer, especially since the heir-apparent Commander Landry came under the Bear's Care last week? And will people stroll into Lorca's ready rom as easily as Riker or LaForge have done whenever Picard heads out unplanned?

I'd put money on Lt Commander Airiam - she outranks Detmer, Richter and Stamets who are full Lieutenants and Owosekun who is a Lieutenant JG. I'd hazard a guess that Stamets isn't even cleared for command duties at the moment - and I doubt it would be Culber (a Lt Commander) or the actual CMO (given they've stated in interviews that's not Culber).

The only member of the command staff we've not yet met would be the ships actual Chief Engineer - unless that is Airiam, but she's been listed as Spore Drive Ops Officer.
 
It looks like either the Discovery visual retcon is intense, or Starfleet designations for Klingon ships don't refer to the apparent exterior design of the ship, because that D-7 we saw didn't look like the traditional Klingon battlecruiser (and it seemed to have a Starfleet-style deflector dish). The D# name was already a bit of a muddle, with the D-12 Bird of Prey being, apparently, distinct from all the other identical Birds of Prey we usually saw with less glitchy cloaks, and the D-4 in STID being a fighter-sized version of the Bird of Prey concept (not too different from the DSC BoPs, now that I think of it). The idea that "D-7" might be a less specific designation than it seems seems more to be the final blow to a fanon concept of a simple, numerical designation of cruiser-sized Klingon ships that had already been heavily damaged.
 
It looks like either the Discovery visual retcon is intense, or Starfleet designations for Klingon ships don't refer to the apparent exterior design of the ship, because that D-7 we saw didn't look like the traditional Klingon battlecruiser (and it seemed to have a Starfleet-style deflector dish). The D# name was already a bit of a muddle, with the D-12 Bird of Prey being, apparently, distinct from all the other identical Birds of Prey we usually saw with less glitchy cloaks, and the D-4 in STID being a fighter-sized version of the Bird of Prey concept (not too different from the DSC BoPs, now that I think of it). The idea that "D-7" might be a less specific designation than it seems seems more to be the final blow to a fanon concept of a simple, numerical designation of cruiser-sized Klingon ships that had already been heavily damaged.

Klingons referring to their ships as D# thing nerver really made sense anyway. I always assumed that it was more of a Starfleet code thing than a Klingon thing (they all had class designations like K'tinga and K'vort and B'rel anyway). They also referred to the D'deridex as B-type warbird. NATO has common reporting names for all sorts of things, too. Doesn't solve the issue, but maybe a 'D7' is just a cruiser category (otherwise, the implication would be that, up to that point, Klingons only used 7 different ship classes, which doesn't make much sense either.). Did we ever hear a Klingon use the D-identifier (except Worf, who'd probably stick with Starfleet naming standards out of habit)?
 
What worries me more is that Lorca accepts that this "battle cruiser" would be run by "30, perhaps 40" crew. He saw the ship; he has no reason to believe he would have been transferred to a separate, dedicated prison barge at that point. So is he calling Tyler's bluff at a later date, having exposed him for a fraud already, but needing him to get out of the ship (unlike he needed Mudd at that stage)? Or is he letting it slide, as "mere lieutenants can get this stuff wrong"?

Nothing fancy with technology this time around, except that yes, Klingon guns do "vaporize" just like TOS ones (only with a bit more droplets). And confirmation that the "S-drive" makes the ship move vertically for some reason, even though the tardigrade moved horizontally when sailing to the sunset...

Biologically, how can the tardigrade undesiccate itself without water?

Operationally, the admirals are being a bit loose-lipped with their top secrets. Why so explicitly specify this Jefferson, Iowa place for Lorca, say? Also, why send the hero ship to look for the hero captain? Lorca may reveal some secrets, but the ship getting captured will.

Historically, the list of "hero captains" is curious. First, for being so short: nobody of worth between Archer and Georgiou? (And is it implied here that Archer worked for the UFP Starfleet at some point? Or is that perhaps ol' Jonathan's grandson and the list only covers extremely recent starship captains?) And second, for including Pike. He'd be a kid. How does he become hero material so quickly after the Talos thing, where he most definitely is not that material yet? (Does this in turn imply that getting on that list only calls for a single act of major heroism, rather than a consistent career of excellence, despite what Saru obviously was aiming at?)

Astrographically, Benzar is on the "right" side (that is, the right side) of the UFP for a Klingon offensive, but also on the "up" side, if they're copying the Star Charts. Basically, the Klingons would be pushing a wedge between the Feds and the Romulans here... Ophiuchus would be on the "wrong" side (that is, upper left), though, marking even grimmer times for the UFP.

Digging the small raiders. The big ship, not so much, regardless of whether she's supposed to be a reimagining of the TOS D-7 or not.

Would the raiders have been a threat to the Discovery? And would this mean that fighter/carrier warfare would be a thing here, or merely that the hero ship is an extremely delicate science thing with a glass jaw?

Timo Saloniemi
 
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A better question needs to differential battles with wars. Has the Federation actually fought a war since incorporating? The Earth Romulan does not count.
I can see the D$ being a Federation designation.
 
On the issue of wars specifically, we can never use absence of evidence for evidence of absence in Star Trek. The Romulan War , the Klingon conflict, the Cardassian War, the Eugenics Wars, the Kzinti Wars... They were never mentioned until they, well, were.

There's room for wars everywhere we aren't looking. Many wars could have been fought between Cochrane first meeting the Vulcans and Archer first meeting the Andorians. Many could have been fought after Archer moved on to politics and before George Kirk had a son. It's only certain specifics that get ruled out by dialogue, such as the Romulans remaining quiet between the 2160s and the 2260s (as far as the heroes know), or the Klingons remaining mostly quiet until 2256 in one timeline and until 2259 in another.

Certainly we lack a specific statement to the end that the UFP would have lived in peace between 2161 and 2256. And lacking that, precedent would suggest the UFP to have been at war with at least a dozen different opponents, some of these wars occurring in the deep background even as we watch the events of DSC or the Kelvin flashback...

Timo Saloniemi
 
The only member of the command staff we've not yet met would be the ships actual Chief Engineer - unless that is Airiam, but she's been listed as Spore Drive Ops Officer.

His life signs graphic again referred to him as "Chief Engineer". That could be in the same way that Argyle was "one of our Chief Engineers" in TNG season 1 of course...

Given he's clearly on board to mind the S-drive, there must be someone else dealing with the warp drive, the EPS conduits and waste extraction.
 
Wouldn't surprise me - remember Chief Engineer Argyle from TNG S1? Where did that guy get to, anyway? Short answer: just another one of Roddenberry's cultural stereotypes, where EVERY engineer worth their salt in Starfleet MUST be a bloody Scotsman!
 
- The episode opens with slightly fuzzy, sweeping looks at the bridge and other locations aboard ship. I'm not convinced the set is THAT large, and perhaps as large as the Sovereign-class set, at best. The way they lens and light it doubtless makes it look larger, but btween the CO chair and the wall stations there's scant enough room for where the Sovvie's tactical stations would be, and that's more or less what we have here. Sure, it makes the TOS Enterprise look cramped in comparison, but a football pitch this is not.

- We KNOW the spinning saucer has something to do with the spore drive, but not exactly what yet. We do see that a graphic of the spinny bits is prominently shown in every display that has to do with its operation, including in Engineering. Later on too, we see that the upper and lower portions of each saucer ALSO spin in opposite directions, so the torque problem I'd wondered about earlier is probably resolved this way. It's also more ammunition to the argument that the spinning parts of the ship are only skin deep.

- Starfleet issue pajamas - is this a first? They even have a metallic Fleet logo on them, so people can tell what organization they're from when they're kidnapped or whatever. In any case, I can only imagine the costume-accurate slumber parties that will happen at Trek conventions the world over now. Unto the present I'm fairly certain that EVERY Starfleeter has been in whatever they want to wear while sleeping - except MAYBE the sleepwear seen on the Excelsior in TUC, which seem to be nondescript white shorts and T-shirts with no particular branding visible.

- We know at least Tilly also has some sort of off-duty wear, being dressed in off-brand blue yogawear or something at the end of a couple weeks ago.

- This is the first space-based Federation Starbase we've seen chronologically (I'm pretty certain), and it's BIG. Not mushroom-big, but still large enough to dwarf the ships seen close to it. It I can't really identify what ships are there (the largest might be the same class as the Europa), but I'm sure they've all been seen before.

- Only one seems to be docked to the station, though, and Discovery is noticably absent for plot-driven purposes only. I'd imagine you can rationalize this by NOT having Discovery anywhere she could be seen by spies or people who could be captured and have her exact position be determined, important intelligence when trying to figure out just how this ship can spore around.

- We only see the one meeting space on the Starbase. It's a fairly generic space, but look - the customized conference table is made of WOOD! Otherwise though it doesn't seem to be a re-dress of some other set that I can see. The only other hexagonal set we know of is the Tardigrade lab, and that's much larger than this.

- It looks like the senior officer at the briefing is a bald Vulcan. Naturally, he doesn't say anything.

- Discovery has been relatively busy, averaging one major military action per week in the last three. I'd guess the other two actions mentioned were also surgical strikes of the hit-and-fade variety? There's no need to actually transit anywhere via conventional warp drive and it's not clear if Discovery has had, or needs significant resupply between actions. I wonder how much of the intervening time is spent preparing for the next mission, or if there's enough down time for, among things, Burnham to get comfy with the crew.

- In the mess hall, there are two different kinds of chairs: most standard chairs you'd find anywhere, and are useful and easily replaceable if anyone would want to start a prison riot or something; but there are fancier hero chairs that Burnham and Tilly sit at here, and which Landry and her squad were at a couple weeks ago. The "classic" chairs, which wouldn't look out of place at a bar on K-7, are found at rectangular tables, while the others are around circular tables. Maybe the hero chairs are somehow specially built in case some aliens can find them more comfy? Otherwise why have more than one kind of chair in such a place?

- The doodad I'd noticed next to Lorca's ready room meal last week was in fact not a hypospray, but an actual PAINFUL NEEDLE IN THE EYE device!

- Starfleet regulation 13982 allows a Captain to conscript "virtually" anyone into service in a time of war. Mutineers are apparently included in this blanket statement, I wonder who isn't?

- This isn't the first time, but on the shuttle back to Discovery, its alert klaxon is a generic one that's been used elsewhere before. I mostly remember it as the red alert sound for the Andromeda Ascendant on one of the "other" Roddenberry shows, but the sound predates that. Listen at about 3:57 here:

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- This shuttle is slightly different than the prison shuttle and Disco-1, again for plot purposes: it's inner airlock door is conveniently opaque, so it (and the hatch above) could surprise Lorca and the hapless shuttle pilot; the other shuttles had transparent inner doors. Additionally, did the top hatch open first, and then the Klingons above patiently waited for the airlock doors to open before they jumped in?

- Yeah, yeah, D-7. But it's later established as a "Klingon prison vessel", which is new for us. I'm willing to rationalize it for now that the computer isn't any more familiar with a Klingon ship of this type and glitched to think it was a D-7 by, oh, let's say, its warp engine profile. This rationalization will only last until the NEXT time someone identifies this particular ship as a D-7.

- So ARE there any Ensigns on this ship? Everyone seems to be of Lieutenant and Commander ranks. And Tilly. There was Ensign Connor on the Shenzhou, but HIS Lieutenant rank would've been posthumous. :)

- The CMO requested help from Dr. Culber for an *Andorian* tonsilectomy. Assuming none of the people present in that exchange was particularly racist, I'm guessing that an Andorian tonsilectomy requrires more than the average effort of a human procedure?

- For those keeping track, the USS Yeager (under Captain Steven Maranville) was also at the Battle of the BInaries (sic - another name for it!). According to Startrek.com, the Yeager was the OTHER quad-nacelled starship in that fleet besides the Europa, and was also another unique ship there.

- Assuming all the little raiders we see later come from this "D-7", the Klingons probably did a good job feeding Tyler disinformation on the ship's complement. Having at LEAST a dozen crew out of 30-40 assigned to raider ops doesn't make much sense for a prison ship, or does it? Or is Tyler lying after all..?

Next, the exposition machine finally gets a work out describing how the s-drive works!

Mark
 
Wouldn't surprise me - remember Chief Engineer Argyle from TNG S1? Where did that guy get to, anyway? Short answer: just another one of Roddenberry's cultural stereotypes, where EVERY engineer worth their salt in Starfleet MUST be a bloody Scotsman!
Argyle with his bizarre accent, and Sarah MacDougal with her equally Scottish name! Logan is also a Scottish name come to think of it. Leyland T. Lynch is the exception that proves the rule.
 
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