Because I like "And The Children Shall Lead" better.
S.T. original series , Episode: Plato's Stepchildren
- Thread starter Phaser 7
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Because I like "And The Children Shall Lead" better.
I thought this was SO embarassing for both Bill and Leonard. When they were dancing and singing and then Spock almost stomps on Jim. And then Spock laughing hysterically (being forced to laugh) and then when Alexander climbs on Kirk's back like a horse. I'm like WHAT!? I can't imagine that Leonard or Bill liked doing this either. I have to wonder if they argued with the PTB about this horrendous scenes....or Captain Kirk training for the equestrian events in the 2154 Starfleet Olympics :
Yes, IIRC, both Shatner and Nimoy were worried about this episode's antics. Maybe it was Shatner's book about TOS that explaind his concerns in more detail(?). I'm pretty sure they let Fred Freiberger know they weren't happy.
One explanation states that "Plato's Stepchildren" didn't get green-lit in spite of the humiliation scenes, but because of them. The show was struggling, and NBC wanted highly promotable moments that would be eye-catching and arresting in the promos they would air. Kirk cracking a whip over Uhura as she cringes in a plunging neckline gown-- viewers who caught the promo were supposed to sit straight up and say, "THIS I've got to see."
Well it certainly went from bad to worse. And I have to say that between this ep and Spock's Brain I'd rather see Spock's Brain, what does THAT tell you about how I feel about this ep?
Spock's Brain is not even in my bottom 5 TOS episodes.
I'd still rewatch it if I'm doing the entire series again but it's just one bad episode!
It was banned here for many years in the UK and it became a must see show for a lot of us back in the eighties.
When I finally did get to see it on rental VHS back in 83 I was not sure about what I'd just watched! Embarrassed yes, my parents were in the room with me and the other one on the tape, Whom Gods Destroy wasn't much better!
So I didn't bother to copy them and just hoped they'd both just go away. I wasn't that keen on The Empath either which was on another tape along with Space Seed (which was released to tie in with the release of Wrath of Khan) but I had to record that one didn't I!!!
JB
It was banned here for many years in the UK and it became a must see show for a lot of us back in the eighties.
When I finally did get to see it on rental VHS back in 83 I was not sure about what I'd just watched! Embarrassed yes, my parents were in the room with me and the other one on the tape, Whom Gods Destroy wasn't much better!
So I didn't bother to copy them and just hoped they'd both just go away. I wasn't that keen on The Empath either which was on another tape along with Space Seed (which was released to tie in with the release of Wrath of Khan) but I had to record that one didn't I!!!
JB
I hear you, JB. A few years ago I had a chance to introduce some relatives of mine to TOS. An unknown episode was being broadcast on my local station. I thought....
Wrong. It was Savage Curtain. Not a bad episode, but I really was disappointed and so were my relatives. Lincoln in space?!?!?
I quite liked The Savage Curtain myself My Lord! 
JB
JB
I quite liked The Savage Curtain myself My Lord!
JB
I like the premise of good versus evil, but I was embarrassed when Lincoln appears on the Enterprise viewscreen.
Well yes, it did seem a bit ridiculous at first!
JB
JB
I would like the episode a lot better if Lincoln was replaced with another figure from history, maybe someone who wasn't wearing a top hat and dress coat. Surely Kirk liked another historical person who loved to fight a little dirty.
I didn't expect this, this feedback is BAFFLING. Plato's Stepchildren is a great episode. Plenty of tension and an extremely hateable antagonist, possibly the most opposed I've ever been to a ST character. You just want to see him get crushed so badly but then Kirk lets him go after getting the upper hand, which is really admirable and noble. Kirk rarely makes me like him quite this much.
The acting is some of Kirk's very best, Spock's is excellent, and Uhura and Chapel are also great. The dialogue couldn't have been more appropriate.
There are a couple exceptions. THE ONLY bad things about this episode: the fact that the food gives them the powers and Kirk is just fed the stuff is questionable, and the way Kirk treats the dwarf like he's a child near the end (and the way he uses the dwarf against the antagonist). Incredibly disappointing stuff in an otherwise perfect episode. It's bizarre that you guys all failed to mention the worst parts about this episode and then go on complaining about great scenes.
Alexander riding Kirk like a horse was at once hilarious (the image, neighing), chilling (just the thought, reminds me somewhat of Caligula and makes me wonder how far this is going to be taken), and even awe-inspiring (I just can't believe how well it's acted). Watching them doing all of these things against their will shouldn't look so good but it really does seem as though they're being forced against their will to do everything they're doing while trying to fight it. Think about how corny and stupid that should look. Imagine trying to do that yourself, that had to be so difficult. It's also great to see Spock getting emotional for no reason, what an actor! It's also just very TOS to find an excuse to get Spock's human side out. The music is also suspenseful and perfect. You're all out of your minds. The only season 3 episodes surely better than this: The Enterprise Incident, The Tholian Web, and Day Of The Dove.
Is There In Truth No Beauty?, Wink Of An Eye, Requiem For Methuselah, and All Our Yesterdays are arguable as well, but that's about it.
You put too much stock in silly mental currencies like pride, honor, respect, etc. There is no "shame," grow a spine and get real before rewatching Plato's Stepchildren.
The other "bad" eps you guys are talking about too, just "lol" is all I can say. A Piece Of The Action, I Mudd, Patterns Of Force, Spock's Brain...? Get a sense of humor, what's next, Trouble With Tribbles sucks? Turnabout Intruder is also awesome and well acted, it really shouldn't seem like Kirk and Janice are in each other's bodies but it does and the criticism that it's "sexist" is nonsense. That's just the way Janice Lester is. One person can have any non-contradicting combination of traits and the fact that you think her combo is "sexist" just proves that you believe her traits are stereotypical of women. That's on you, not TOS. If 1 male character on the show had those traits, the word "sexist" wouldn't have passed through your mind and you know it. She's a formidable antagonist and giving the crew reason to mutiny against Kirk is one of the more interesting plot points of the series. To say it's one of the worst episodes is a joke, it's far from boring and there's a boring episode or two.
An actual "bad" episode (for TOS) is That Which Survives. Relatively predictable, little characterization for anyone, repetitive, few memorable lines, unoriginal plot, played out. At least to the best of my memory. I just tried to find one I didn't like so that someone can get me back for what I said and hopefully give some reasons to like That Which Survives. I'm pretty sure it was boring though.
EDIT: I forgot to comment on the opposition towards The Savage Curtain. Lincoln was the best choice, the others you mention are slave holders or imperialists, the great emancipator just makes the most sense as Kirk's hero. Being pulled from Kirk's mind, it's completely justified too, the episode isn't ridiculous at all.
The acting is some of Kirk's very best, Spock's is excellent, and Uhura and Chapel are also great. The dialogue couldn't have been more appropriate.
There are a couple exceptions. THE ONLY bad things about this episode: the fact that the food gives them the powers and Kirk is just fed the stuff is questionable, and the way Kirk treats the dwarf like he's a child near the end (and the way he uses the dwarf against the antagonist). Incredibly disappointing stuff in an otherwise perfect episode. It's bizarre that you guys all failed to mention the worst parts about this episode and then go on complaining about great scenes.
Alexander riding Kirk like a horse was at once hilarious (the image, neighing), chilling (just the thought, reminds me somewhat of Caligula and makes me wonder how far this is going to be taken), and even awe-inspiring (I just can't believe how well it's acted). Watching them doing all of these things against their will shouldn't look so good but it really does seem as though they're being forced against their will to do everything they're doing while trying to fight it. Think about how corny and stupid that should look. Imagine trying to do that yourself, that had to be so difficult. It's also great to see Spock getting emotional for no reason, what an actor! It's also just very TOS to find an excuse to get Spock's human side out. The music is also suspenseful and perfect. You're all out of your minds. The only season 3 episodes surely better than this: The Enterprise Incident, The Tholian Web, and Day Of The Dove.
Is There In Truth No Beauty?, Wink Of An Eye, Requiem For Methuselah, and All Our Yesterdays are arguable as well, but that's about it.
You put too much stock in silly mental currencies like pride, honor, respect, etc. There is no "shame," grow a spine and get real before rewatching Plato's Stepchildren.
The other "bad" eps you guys are talking about too, just "lol" is all I can say. A Piece Of The Action, I Mudd, Patterns Of Force, Spock's Brain...? Get a sense of humor, what's next, Trouble With Tribbles sucks? Turnabout Intruder is also awesome and well acted, it really shouldn't seem like Kirk and Janice are in each other's bodies but it does and the criticism that it's "sexist" is nonsense. That's just the way Janice Lester is. One person can have any non-contradicting combination of traits and the fact that you think her combo is "sexist" just proves that you believe her traits are stereotypical of women. That's on you, not TOS. If 1 male character on the show had those traits, the word "sexist" wouldn't have passed through your mind and you know it. She's a formidable antagonist and giving the crew reason to mutiny against Kirk is one of the more interesting plot points of the series. To say it's one of the worst episodes is a joke, it's far from boring and there's a boring episode or two.
An actual "bad" episode (for TOS) is That Which Survives. Relatively predictable, little characterization for anyone, repetitive, few memorable lines, unoriginal plot, played out. At least to the best of my memory. I just tried to find one I didn't like so that someone can get me back for what I said and hopefully give some reasons to like That Which Survives. I'm pretty sure it was boring though.
EDIT: I forgot to comment on the opposition towards The Savage Curtain. Lincoln was the best choice, the others you mention are slave holders or imperialists, the great emancipator just makes the most sense as Kirk's hero. Being pulled from Kirk's mind, it's completely justified too, the episode isn't ridiculous at all.
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I love how different everyone's taste is. I like That Which Survives a lot. I revisit it often. I actually enjoy much of the third season, but there is a noticeable drop in quality as soon as Bob Justman left the building. Having said that, I still like a few of them enough to go back once in a while.
I like TWS. It has some great scenes in it. I still get chills when Kirk and McCoy watch helplessly as Ensign Wyatt gets killed in the transporter room.
The Enterprise Incident can put me to sleep at certain times during the episode. I like the espionage angle and the Romulans, but there are too many slow moving scenes to keep me attentive.
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