If Janeway had not destroyed the Caretaker....

[Anwar]

But Janeway could have tried an old military tactic known as subterfuge. Offer the Kazon the array if they will allow them to use the array to return home, and just leave a few explosives behind set to detonate after the array is activated.

The Kazon were already out for blood, they'd have refused any deals.

Which is why they should've just eliminated that whole "We need the Array to go home" plot point and have it be clear that any chance of going home that early died with the Caretaker.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Honestly, this whole debacle over the Array and Janeway would've been avoided easily if the writers had just stated that it was the Caretaker himself who brought Voyager to the DQ and not the Array. He overestimated himself and was too weak to send them back when he died.

Going home was never an option.

The fact that it was a sacrifice was a major plot point.

 

[Anwar]

The fact that it was a sacrifice was a major plot point.

It wasn't, and it got especially bad when the writers themselves forgot about how time explosives weren't an option and blamed Janeway for everything.

 

[thewanderingjack]

It wasn't, and it got especially bad when the writers themselves forgot about how time explosives weren't an option and blamed Janeway for everything.

But it was, because the writers made it so. Her guilt/culpability for stranding them in the DQ came up repeatedly, especially when other similar options came up and she was forced to choose again (either she'd be torn, or some people who blamed her would speak up that she should choose to whichever way got them home). It finally came to a head with Equinox, when they were faced with a crew who chose the other path.

The idea of their being stranded as a sacrifice is kind of a big thing, imo. Because it keeps recurring, it is a point of contention, and because while maybe some only grudgingly made that sacrifice (and not by their own choice, since it was always ultimately up to the captain), in the end they still chose to adhere to human/starfleet ideals. Otherwise it would've the entire show would've been Strak Trek: Rogue. What happens when Starfleet stops being nice, and starts getting real...

 

[Anwar]

But it was, because the writers made it so. Her guilt/culpability for stranding them in the DQ came up repeatedly, especially when other similar options came up and she was forced to choose again (either she'd be torn, or some people who blamed her would speak up that she should choose to whichever way got them home).

Yeah, but those options could never work because the show would be over. It's Gilligan Syndrome.

The idea of their being stranded as a sacrifice is kind of a big thing, imo. Because it keeps recurring, it is a point of contention, and because while maybe some only grudgingly made that sacrifice (and not by their own choice, since it was always ultimately up to the captain), in the end they still chose to adhere to human/starfleet ideals.

In Farscape, did Crichton have a choice when a random wormhole sucked him up and deposited him in another part of the Galaxy? No.

For over 20 years now, the whole "Janeway could've used time explosives!" argument keeps coming up as a sign of her incompetence. Take it out of her hands completely and make it clear that the Array wasn't an option at all and their hope of going home fast died with the Caretaker, it streamlines things and increases sympathy.

 

[thewanderingjack]

In Farscape, did Crichton have a choice when a random wormhole sucked him up and deposited him in another part of the Galaxy? No.

For over 20 years now, the whole "Janeway could've used time explosives!" argument keeps coming up as a sign of her incompetence. Take it out of her hands completely and make it clear that the Array wasn't an option at all and their hope of going home fast died with the Caretaker, it streamlines things and increases sympathy.

Apples and oranges, Crichton's situation and Voyagers. Mainly because there might have been a choice. I'm not familiar with the time explosives thing, just saying they sort of presented the situation as having the hope of a choice in-show.

I think avoiding argument isn't a good reason to make it different... specially since we're talking about solving a problem that hasn't happened yet... you need hindsight to see what problems people have with what you do. Or a ret-con (ugh). But also generally... I mean, discussion's great, and hopefully people can come to terms... a unifying theory, peace wihe differences, acceptance that it's just a sci-fi show... I'm happy accepting their choice to make the Voyager crew sacrifice their chance to get home... even if I don't agree with it.

 

[Anwar]

Apples and oranges, Crichton's situation and Voyagers.

How?

Mainly because there might have been a choice.

There's nothing lost by making their situation hopeless in going home that easily. It just means the audience can't blame Janeway for everything.

 

[DonIago]

I appreciate the moral complexity evoked by Janeway bearing some responsibility.

 

[LJones41]

It wasn't, and it got especially bad when the writers themselves forgot about how time explosives weren't an option and blamed Janeway for everything.

Actually, it was.

 

[thewanderingjack]

How?
There's nothing lost by making their situation hopeless in going home that easily. It just means the audience can't blame Janeway for everything.

Well, on the most basic level, because he was alone, i.e.: he was responsible for/to no one (at first) and didn't have to feel guilty about getting a ton of other people stuck there with him. For him return really was never an option, not at first and even hardly as a plot point. Yeah he's looking... but not usually super actively seeking since as far as anyone know, there is no way back.

I'm with Donlago on the "moral complexity"... I think people who hate Janeway for it should stop Monday morning quarterbacking and stop being pussies.

I'm Super pised that MoS Supes let his father die. But whatever, hate that whole version anyway...

 

[Guy Gardener]

This is a how many people until it's wrong situation.

How many Ocampa were there?

A billion? Less than a million, or less than a hundred?

This was Kazon Space.

The Ocampa abandoned the surface of their world, then left fallow, the Kazon claimed it.

There are billions of Kazon (in theory) in fleets of ships, and dozens, maybe hundres of worlds.

40 thousand Kazon in any one of those city ships they stole off the Trabe.

And less than a 100 Ocampa.

All the Kazon, may have fit in one of Voyager's Cargo bays, or there's a billion of them in hundreds of cities spread inside Ocampa's crust.

 

[Refuge]

A few zillion gallons of water and the Kazon would've gone away, but the array still had to be disabled/destroyed it was a tactical risk to leave it and the Ocampa were like children, they needed Janeway to save them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

After two weeks with the array, the Kazon would have figured out replicators, and started building their own, and water would not have been a consideration after that.

Despite the script, it's pretty clear that water was only super valuable on Ocampa, whether it was used in the mining process or not, but there's plenty of water in the rest of their solar system that can be mass driven into Ocampan orbit with tractor beams.

Um.

You can't make fake oceans on Ocampa if there's no precipitation.

The water will be unusable and poisonous after a few weeks.

 

[Refuge]

The Kazon were hopeless when they did get to use replicator technology they were a danger unto themselves..

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway sold replicators too, but she didn't have to worry about getting snapped by her own crew while making sure that her customers were not going to blow off their faces.

 

[Refuge]

Janeway's biggest mistake was giving the Hirogen holographic technology, now that one did come back to bite them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Her biggest mistake was not having a child with Q.

 

[Refuge]

Her biggest mistake was not having a child with Q.

I would've.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Her biggest mistake was keeping Neelix after he starting slinging drugs.

 

[Refuge]

I'll bite, what drugs? Leola root?