Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Crazy Eddie]

I definately agree on the last part, as far as the former goes I'd argue that them not purchasing them through channels means that - at minimum - doing so, while not necessarily illegal as such - might act as a 'red flag' (similar to buying large quantities of legal substances used to make meth or ANFO would in the RW) without very good explanations.

Well, they obviously couldn't buy them from Starfleet because Starfleet doesn't sell weapons. The Bajorans might have (and probably did) sell a few items out of their inventory but would have stopped after Starfleet leaned on them to deny those sales. A neural third party wouldn't give a shit, and there's not much the Federation could do about it except go on trying to arrest/detain/pacify the Maquis.

As to your more specific point: this is basically what the Maquis did when they created their bioweapon to poison the Cardassians. They stole a shipment of cobalt, and then a shipment of selenium. I don't even think buying both of those things in combination would actually be illegal, but the fact that you can work those materials into a bioweapon completely lethal to Cardassians is an example of what I'm talking about.

An even better example is the bilitrium bomb Tahna Los was going to use to destroy the wormhole. It seems to me that there are quite a few of these nifty little "weapon of mass destruction" recipes floating around on the Federation Internet or something and it is shockingly easy for assholes, terrorists and lunatics to throw together a poor-man's doomsday device. Hell, even a hand phaser set to overload makes a pretty impressive bomb, and the kinds of guns that Quark's brother sells out of the back of his shuttle could be used to take out entire cities if somebody was motivated enough.

Technology has become the Great Equalizer in the Trek universe, so the utility of a professional military with combat-specialist forces probably isn't enough to justify the loss of OTHER capabilities that comes with having a multirole science platform carry those same weapons. In fact it might be just the opposite: professional militaries are inherently limited by their dependence on weapon systems and martial philosophy while more adaptable organizations like Stafleet can actually defeat most military forces pretty efficiently just by exploiting the weaknesses in their weapons and technology. The Klingons may be able to out fight you and out gun you, but Starfleet can hit you with a tachyon pulse that renders your weapons useless and then pump a sub-harmonic pulse through your sound system that turns your crew into a bunch of gibbering idiots; they win the battle without firing a shot.

 

[The Wormhole]

We see USS Valiant was being used as an advanced elite cadet training ship....though that unit might have been sent out there as punishment for their aid in the attempted coup, and were expected to die fighting the Dominion.

Even if Starfleet wanted to send their best cadets out to die as punishment for their unwitting assistance in an attempted coup, I can't imagine Starfleet wasting a state of the art warship during a time of war to do so. Wouldn't it make much more sense to give them some crappy field assignment like AR-558 or something?

 

[Prax]

Well, they obviously couldn't buy them from Starfleet because Starfleet doesn't sell weapons. The Bajorans might have (and probably did) sell a few items out of their inventory but would have stopped after Starfleet leaned on them to deny those sales. A neural third party wouldn't give a shit, and there's not much the Federation could do about it except go on trying to arrest/detain/pacify the Maquis.

As to your more specific point: this is basically what the Maquis did when they created their bioweapon to poison the Cardassians. They stole a shipment of cobalt, and then a shipment of selenium. I don't even think buying both of those things in combination would actually be illegal, but the fact that you can work those materials into a bioweapon completely lethal to Cardassians is an example of what I'm talking about.

An even better example is the bilitrium bomb Tahna Los was going to use to destroy the wormhole. It seems to me that there are quite a few of these nifty little "weapon of mass destruction" recipes floating around on the Federation Internet or something and it is shockingly easy for assholes, terrorists and lunatics to throw together a poor-man's doomsday device. Hell, even a hand phaser set to overload makes a pretty impressive bomb, and the kinds of guns that Quark's brother sells out of the back of his shuttle could be used to take out entire cities if somebody was motivated enough.

Technology has become the Great Equalizer in the Trek universe, so the utility of a professional military with combat-specialist forces probably isn't enough to justify the loss of OTHER capabilities that comes with having a multirole science platform carry those same weapons. In fact it might be just the opposite: professional militaries are inherently limited by their dependence on weapon systems and martial philosophy while more adaptable organizations like Stafleet can actually defeat most military forces pretty efficiently just by exploiting the weaknesses in their weapons and technology. The Klingons may be able to out fight you and out gun you, but Starfleet can hit you with a tachyon pulse that renders your weapons useless and then pump a sub-harmonic pulse through your sound system that turns your crew into a bunch of gibbering idiots; they win the battle without firing a shot.

I think it was implied that the Maquis were getting their weapons and equipment from Starfleet through UNofficial channels.

You keep referring to Starfleet using unconventional tactics-and that this somehow implies that Starfleet is not like a military. Are they mutually exclusive? Is it even true? This example you gave(and have given before) has it ever happened? Starfleet more often engages using conventional weapons and tactics. Two ships come in contact. They fire at each other. "Shields down to 87%!" "Return fire!" "Photon Torpedoes, full spread!" "Activate the photonic cannon!" "Evasive Maneuvers" "Target their shields" Target their engines" "Target their navigation" "Fire at will!"

...and a dozen other phrases that we are all sick of hearing because they are used soooo dang much. Kirk very often used unconventional tactics, but he didn't use unconventional weapons! Picard was the only one who was always like "No Worf. Wait" but he still used conventional weapons quite often. The other "star" captains...Even more so.

 

[BillJ]

I think it was implied that the Maquis were getting their weapons and equipment from Starfleet through UNofficial channels.

You keep referring to Starfleet using unconventional tactics-and that this somehow implies that Starfleet is not like a military. Are they mutually exclusive? Is it even true? This example you gave(and have given before) has it ever happened? Starfleet more often engages using conventional weapons and tactics. Two ships come in contact. They fire at each other. "Shields down to 87%!" "Return fire!" "Photon Torpedoes, full spread!" "Activate the photonic cannon!" "Evasive Maneuvers" "Target their shields" Target their engines" "Target their navigation" "Fire at will!"

...and a dozen other phrases that we are all sick of hearing because they are used soooo dang much. Kirk very often used unconventional tactics, but he didn't use unconventional weapons! Picard was the only one who was always like "No Worf. Wait" but he still used conventional weapons quite often. The other "star" captains...Even more so.

Everyone on each of the series definitely seemed well versed in using weapons and very few were shy about it.

 

[Ithekro]

Even if Starfleet wanted to send their best cadets out to die as punishment for their unwitting assistance in an attempted coup, I can't imagine Starfleet wasting a state of the art warship during a time of war to do so. Wouldn't it make much more sense to give them some crappy field assignment like AR-558 or something?

They were sent out several months before the war broke out. During the period when ships were being destroyed without the Federation giving a real response, both on the Cardassian and Klingon borders.

 

[The Wormhole]

They were sent out several months before the war broke out. During the period when ships were being destroyed without the Federation giving a real response, both on the Cardassian and Klingon borders.

My point still stands that if Starfleet was going to send them to their deaths, they wouldn't have given them one of their newest most advanced starships to do that in. It's like in Space Seed when Spock shot down Kirk's suggestion that the Botany Bay was a prison ship, there are more efficient ways to send people to their death without wasting you're most advanced technology to do so,

Though the idea that Starfleet would intentionally send cadets to die as punishment for their part in a coup attempt is rather out of character to begin with. Even ignoring the fact they were following what they believed were lawful orders from their superiors, the more important fact is that we know of Starfleet didn't execute Admiral Leyton or any of his top officers who actually had a knowing role in the coup and planned the whole thing out, so why would they decide a group of cadets who were manipulated into the affair through no real fault of their own had to be put to death.

Sweet fuck, you're one of the ones who are actually arguing that Starfleet isn't a military. If this is how you think a non-military would handle this, you're idea of how the military itself would must truly be frightening.

 

[Prax]

Maybe they sent Red squad out in the reliant hoping they would fall on an enemy torpedo to kill 2 birds with one stone. Yes, both Red Squad and the defiant class were becoming a PR nightmare on the "We are not a military" front. Heck, maybe it was an intelligence operation.

"These kids were really hurting our public image. The press was starting to ask us uncomfortable questions about our mandate of 'exploration.'"

"How did you deal with them?"

"Quietly..."

 

[Ithekro]

My thought is that Starfleet gets drafted into the Federation military around the time of First Contact after the escalating war with the Klingons and the Dominion threat has become such that Starfleet can't handle it. This is way there are suddenly hundred and later thousands of ships around rather than "the only ship in the quadrant" and people having trouble scrapping up a dozen or two starships for a large operation. With a lot of ship classes that were never seen before, but (by their registry number) should have been around for a while.

This is also the reason for the sudden uniform change to the greys from the usual more colorful uniforms, and a reason Voyager doesn't which over even after getting in contact with Starfleet. They were not drafted, so they are still the usual Starfleet organization.

Post war, it will take probably a decade or so to recover from the war. When Starfleet finally does get undrafted, they will introduce the colorful uniforms again as seen in all those "future" episodes set in the mid-2390s and early 2400s.

 

[The Wormhole]

This is also the reason for the sudden uniform change to the greys from the usual more colorful uniforms,

The problem there, is the change wasn't really so "sudden." When the uniforms first switch to gray in First Contact, we see Starfleet Admirals are still wearing the old type of uniform, this continues to be the case throughout DS9's fifth season, and indeed even in season 6's A Time to Stand we have the only time Admiral Ross wore the old style admiral's uniform. It's not until season 6's Behind the Lines that a new gray Admiral's uniform is introduced. By your logic, even though Starfleet has been drafted into the military, they're still answering to their old explorer superiors for nearly a year afterwards, even a few months after formal war were declared, and one of those explorers ended up becoming the guy running the war anyway.

Also, the old TNG-style standard duty uniforms continued to be used on DS9 even after the switch to gray uniforms, indeed we see a couple involved in the battle planning in Tears of the Prophets, the S6 finale. So, these two guys were for some reason not drafted into the Federation military, are still part of the old Starfleet, but are still involved in the planning of military operations?

 

[Ithekro]

Also, the old TNG-style standard duty uniforms continued to be used on DS9 even after the switch to gray uniforms, indeed we see a couple involved in the battle planning in Tears of the Prophets, the S6 finale. So, these two guys were for some reason not drafted into the Federation military, are still part of the old Starfleet, but are still involved in the planning of military operations?

Oddly the two standing in the back with the Klingons look like they are working as security even though they are wearing red. Like the red shirts of old.

 

[The Wormhole]

They're probably Admiral Ross's aides, the other officers who wore TNG style uniforms after the grays were introduced were other admirals' aides. Though that just raises the question why didn't Sisko switch back to the TNG style when he was Admiral Ross's aide during the station occupation arc in season 6.

 

[Ithekro]

Costuming department got some weird memos?

 

[Nyotarules]

Quartermaster had a bad day?

 

[Prax]

Whenever there's a uniform change IRW, there's a transition period. The new uniform will be announced and passed down the chain. Dress code diagrams will be created and disseminated, like how long your blouse should be, authorized ways of wearing your cover(or appropriate placement of your combadge lol)

Then, the uniform will be announced as authorized to wear. From then there will be a year or so where each commander has the discretion to authorize it in their unit, and it's up to them if they allow personnel to wear both(people who have the new can wear the new. People who don't can continue wearing the old), or they might wait until everyone has it, then no longer authorize the old, prior to the official deadline.

The U.S. Army has had two major uniform changes in 10 years. The first was in 2005, and you'd still see some people wearing the old one as late as 2008. Then again 3 years ago, and there was a 2 year transition. The army dress uniform also just changed with a similar lengthy transition.

As for Admirals, I don't know as much about the Navy, but it's usually the brass that start wearing the fresh new garb first. They like to show off, ya'know.

 

[Sgt_G]

Quartermaster had a bad day?

In the Army, the Quartermaster is the supply guy, but in the Navy, the Quartermaster works helm and navigation.

 

[Nyotarules]

In the Army, the Quartermaster is the supply guy, but in the Navy, the Quartermaster works helm and navigation.

And since Starfleet is the army and navy in space, the QM does both lol

 

[jaime]

And since Starfleet is the army and navy in space, the QM does both lol

Sulus got his french curve out again lads.....

 

[J.T.B.]

In the Army, the Quartermaster is the supply guy, but in the Navy, the Quartermaster works helm and navigation.

And in Starfleet, it's the supply guy ("Tomorrow is Yesterday").

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

In the Army, the Quartermaster is the supply guy, but in the Navy, the Quartermaster works helm and navigation.

And in Starfleet, it's the supply guy ("Tomorrow is Yesterday").

Also in ENT: 'Civilization', 'Fortunate Son', 'Countdown' and 'Affliction' for UE Starfleet and DS9: 'Treachery, Faith and the Great River') confirms the TiY reference for UFP Starfleet. Also, in TNG 'Unification', a supply yard controller is also given the title of Quartermaster. Both versions match the Army usage not the naval one (Starfleet appears to use the more intuative title of 'navigator' if separate from helm/CONN)

 

[Prax]

Starfleet also uses "Cadet." An Army rank.