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CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

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@Professor Zoom:

That's the whole point: there is no market. CBS won't permit one.

That's not entirely true. There's a market for licenses for other merchandise. They just aren't interested in selling their interest in making tv or film.

This is just a lack of imagination. They could sell licenses that basically look like the guidelines with a few restrictions loosened and it would have nominal impact on their business in the worst of cases. They can write licenses with any conditions they want, and it may actually give them a tidy profit between franchise releases. If people violate the licenses, they loose their license and CBS can go after them.

Why would they want to dilute their brand? Why would they want to turn the keys of Star Trek over to people with very little experience? Even for a little bit of profit. Look how badly Enterprise damaged Star Trek, and it was THEIRS.

You do have a point that a brand name would make it significantly easier to crowd fund a project that uses a known brand name like Star Trek. However, I doubt that the vast majority of people making fan films, even the likes of Axanar, started with the thought "What well known brand name can I exploit?". Most likely, they start with an affinity for the franchise. (However twisted their relationship with the franchise becomes.)

Huh. People having an affinity for a very well known franchise? Huh. Go figure.

I suspect it would be easier and cheaper to start from scratch than to license a cheap property that has virtually no value in the marketplace. They usually lack market value for a reason, and adaption has intrinsic risks.

Bingo. Thus why, after Axanar, CBS and Paramount decided to add some restrictions on fan films as it seems like some fans will put money down for anything labeled Star Trek.

I would have released my novel under a license that spells out my intent for the work. I wouldn't string people along in a legal grey area, then get pissy when then bump into an invisible wall.

What does this even mean? Yes or no, would you be ok if CBS took your distinctive ideas and created a derivative work without compensation?

The only real property under the law is the copyright itself. Therefore, unless creating a derivative work actually transfers copyright, no property has changed hands, so there is nothing that can legally be considered theft. Seeing as your arguments largely hinge on legal rights, it is inappropriate for you to use the terms "stealing" and "theft", as they imply legal infractions and penalties that are not occuring.

I don't know how to make it any plain: if you take something that is not yours without permission, what is that called?

And derivative works are not "stealing". They are an infringement of copyright. What you're engaging in is little more than flamebaiting.

I agree, it is infringement of copyright. It's stealing someone's IP. If you don't like what I am saying, you are free to scroll past my posts. No one is forcing you to respond.



A fan film. I believe STC already did. But if I got that wrong, I believe STC said they intended to.

They don't. As they are finishing up what they made before the guidelines were introduced--and thus grandfathered in, and aren't producing anymore.

I say I don't think they will be uniformly enforced.

What evidence do you have to make you believe this?
 
I'm sure it's already been said but STC (which is a legitimate non-profit) has communicated with CBS and worked with them to finish the series as intended; well before the Axanar debacle. They have an unwritten agreement that they will be allowed to fulfill the commitment to the fans who donated to finish the episodes. STC cut a few episode from the intended run to comply with CBS's wishes. It is a lesson on how to maintain good relationships with the IP owner, IMO.
 
You have a chicken-and-the-egg problem.

I have never had a problem with chickens or eggs, although, I do like chicken omelets, which some people feel is just going too far and is a huge transgression against the species. But seriously, some non-chicken, for it must have laid other eggs that did not produce chickens, at some point laid an egg with a genetic mutation that would cross whatever arbitrary line you define that makes a chicken. Thus, the chicken egg came first - QED. And if I had been there, I might have eaten it before it could have reproduced, and hence committed one of the worst crimes against humanity ever conceived - KFC.

In my opinion, CBS/P will allow some wiggle room in the guidelines in proportion to the level of cooperation and respect demonstrated by the fan film makers.

This might lead to favoritism, kickbacks, bribes, or other unsavory aspects of the fan film community. Even the appearance of favoritism may cause rancor.

I think with STC ending their series you won't see any more 50-minute episodes, but you may see a film maker going a minute or two over the 15-minute limit, or some other minor excursion over the guidelines without CBS/P coming down on them.

I think that's too bad. I like the longer treatment, and Trek, in particular, was more a thinking fan's series since they often had large segments to discuss some theory and plan their actions. At least if they had better crafted a guideline to reflect the typical hour-long episode - (really 44 minutes, so call it 45) – then THREE such segments could have been made, and I think it would kept fan films away from feature-length works (which is what CBS and Paramount makes) and better served and pleased the fan base and the fan film makers without such a more burdensome time limit.
 
My fear, for example, is they'd allow STC or others to make 50-minute episodes, no problem, but would not allow Axanar more than two 15-minute episodes without suing, and how much time of those 15-minutes they must allocate to required disclaimers remains to be seen, but that's another matter.

Why on earth would you "fear" that? (That's a rhetorical question -- when you've seen one Axanarian concern troll, you've seen them all.)

What's there to "fear" about productions who treat the IP holder with significantly more respect than Axanar does being treated in turn with more significantly more respect by the IP holder than Axanar is treated? Far from "fear," it's precisely the correct, humane (and human) way to go.
 
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ETA: Here's a quote from a pro-Axanar website: "But the important thing is that the guidelines didn’t suddenly choke off fan projects. In fact, many productions were already in compliance with most, if not all, of the new guidelines. And those that weren't were allowed by CBS and Paramount (according to this podcast interview with John Van Citters of CBS Licensing) to be "grandfathered in" as long as they were already in production when the new guidelines were announced.

Too bad those are not published to a text listing of the 10 guidelines (that I can easily find yet in a Google search). But O.K. And one may even understand if some work is already in the can how burdensome it would be to change it. But I suspect much of isn't. For example, do they omit "Star Trek" in the title? Not that I want STC to be reigned in, you understand, but I don't think they couldn't reasonably comply with more of the guidelines if they were that important.

If you don't like what I am saying, you are free to scroll past my posts. No one is forcing you to respond.

Damn! I knew I should have copyrighted that phrase.

What evidence do you have to make you believe this?

None. Feel free to dismiss it. No one will be happier than I if the guidelines are uniformly and fairly applied, except perhaps my brother, and some of his friends. Oh yes, and Captain Johnston. Come to think of it, most people like a uniform application of the guidelines more than I do. But that's beside the point.

Why on earth would you "fear" that? (That's a rhetorical question -- when you've seen one Axanarian concern troll, you've seen them all.)

So, I'm just a troll? Well, if that's all you see, then that's all you probably ever will. You shouldn't talk to trolls. Didn't your mother ever teach you that?
 
I'm not sure how else to describe people taking something that doesn't belong to them and using it for their own ends.

Like enjoyment and fun? I thought of another word. Sharing.

Suppose I came over to your house for a play date, and your mother has us play in your room since that's where you have your toys spread all over the place. Naturally, there are some toys designed for more than one person to play with at the same time, but many aren't, and we could both be happy by playing alone in the same room with different toys. But suppose for some reason every toy I picked up suddenly became your favorite toy, even though you hadn't played with that toy in weeks or months. Every time I pick one up, you take it away. MINE! Well, I'm not even going to suggest you are doing anything illegal or you aren't within your legal rights. But I would suggest if I picked up a toy, even if you hadn't explicitly told me I could, and even if I hadn't asked, this would not constitute stealing. But what else can you call it when I take something of yours without asking? Maybe what your mother has to say about what's acceptable behavior might come into play (loosely translated as this is copyright law and a civil matter to help regulate civil behavior). And the likely fact you sharing more would probably be good for you, earn you more friends, and make you a better person is beside the point, too (loosely translated as increasing the IP value and exposure).

Of course I'd agree if I hid some of your toys on me and took them home without your knowledge that that would be stealing. But fan film producers aren't doing that - at least not always, and copyright infringement, too, has a line where civil law is left behind and criminal law will then apply - mostly about counterfeiting and copying and distribution. But again, most of the examples we use when discussing fanfilmdom are not crossing that line.

So, yeah, I think civil Sharing is a good term.

But the important thing is that the guidelines didn’t suddenly choke off fan projects. In fact, many productions were already in compliance with most, if not all, of the new guidelines. And those that weren’t were allowed by CBS and Paramount (according to this podcast interview with John Van Citters of CBS Licensing) to be “grandfathered in” as long as they were already in production when the new guidelines were announced.

I distrust, or trust less such verbal suggestions and would prefer it written out for fanfilmdom (even when it's actually written out, it's still not a promise not to sue). I wonder. If Mr. Pink had a Trek fan project that's 90% in the can but he had to shelf it until he could raise more money for editing equipment, and there were more than a few copyright infringements, but no more than a typical fan film before the guidelines, maybe even less, and he could prove it was on the shelf before the guidelines, do you think CBS/Paramount would grandfather those in, even if he had more than a few of them?

What evidence do you have to make you believe this?

I should restate this, as while I still have no evidence there will be non-uniform application of the guidelines, there are a few people here who apparently believe it. They say things like, you play nice and give CBS/Paramount hugs and kisses and they will treat you better. You're indifferent, they won't. They don't like you, for any reason, perhaps not even related to your project, and they could be a more active hindrance - and do it legally to boot. None of that is proof they will. But I think it shows that more than I think they might apply the guidelines non-uniformly. And I do still wonder if this might create more than the appearance of favoritism at times and prove to be problematic if it's true.

Why on earth would you "fear" that?

I fear if non-uniform treatment is the rule, it will be to the detriment of all fanfilmdom, and could cause needless bitterness between fans who might wish to champion different projects. I guess that's the best answer I can give, for a Troll. Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go and regenerate.
 
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My fear, for example, is they'd allow STC or others to make 50-minute episodes, no problem, but would not allow Axanar more than two 15-minute episodes without suing, and how much time of those 15-minutes they must allocate to required disclaimers remains to be seen, but that's another matter.
There's nothing to fear: Axanar has already been sued. The constraints that Axanar is on are LEGALLY BINDING as a result of their mutually agreed settlement with CBS.
No other fan film is under any constraints at all; remember that these are guidelines not rules. CBS, if it wished, could still sue any fan film that fully complied with the guidelines and would be legally allowed to do so. The guidelines are not legally binding - the terms that Axanar agreed to most certainly are.

CBS isn't interested in policing fan films, something that was stated very clearly by Van Citters in the "Engage" podcast. This is not about enforcement of edicts, this is providing a "safe zone" that fan films can play in. Nothing stops groups from straying over the line, and there are no guarantees that CBS will immediately smack them down if they do. This is about mutual respect and common sense at the end of the day, something that all but one fan film (that wasn't even calling itself a fan film) understood entirely.
 
Like enjoyment and fun? I thought of another word. Sharing.

Suppose I came over to your house for a play date, and your mother has us play in your room since that's where you have your toys spread all over the place. Naturally, there are some toys designed for more than one person to play with at the same time, but many aren't, and we could both be happy by playing alone in the same room with different toys. But suppose for some reason every toy I picked up suddenly became your favorite toy, even though you hadn't played with that toy in weeks or months. Every time I pick one up, you take it away. MINE! Well, I'm not even going to suggest you are doing anything illegal or you aren't within your legal rights. But I would suggest if I picked up a toy, even if you hadn't explicitly told me I could, and even if I hadn't asked, this would not constitute stealing. But what else can you call it when I take something of yours without asking? Maybe what your mother has to say about what's acceptable behavior might come into play (loosely translated as this is copyright law and a civil matter to help regulate civil behavior). And the likely fact you sharing more would probably be good for you, earn you more friends, and make you a better person is beside the point, too (loosely translated as increasing the IP value and exposure).

Of course I'd agree if I hid some of your toys on me and took them home without your knowledge that that would be stealing. But fan film producers aren't doing that - at least not always, and copyright infringement, too, has a line where civil law is left behind and criminal law will then apply - mostly about counterfeiting and copying and distribution. But again, most of the examples we use when discussing fanfilmdom are not crossing that line.

So, yeah, I think civil Sharing is a good term.

Forgive me, but, I'm not sure I understand your example. In your scenario, the entitled kid screaming "Mine, MINE!" is that supposed to represent the fan? Or the studio?

Because, where your analogy falls apart, the studio hasn't invited anyone to play with their toys. A better example would be, having seen a kid playing with his toys, another kid decides to just go over to the first kids house without invitation and without permission and start playing with the toys.

See... it's the PERMISSION part you keep leaving out of your examples.... you leave it out, because you know, without permission, you are in a morally grey area. And you are doing your best to free fan films from being morally grey. You see yourself as fighting for the little guy, but, it's that little guy who is taking something without their permission, i.e., stealing something that doesn't belong to them.

Do you know mind the stealing because it's a big corporation? Would you feel differently about derivative works if CBS stole something from the little guy? What would you say then?
 
Alec Peters was the only one who asked for guidelines - while he ran an unlicensed Star Trek merchandise operation, while he visited conventions and raised more and more money using Star Trek's name and imagery. While he outfitted a studio instead of making the promised film and while he paid himself a salary and covered his and his friends' expenses (Axanar related or otherwise) from Axanar funds.

He dared them to tell him he couldn't do it, and they did. Of course they're going to make him adhere to the rules he specifically asked for.
 
Also: who says stealing precludes having fun? The guys in Oceans 11 sure seemed to be enjoying themselves as they robbed the casino. I know I had fun.

But let's not talk about Oceans 12.
 
Damn! I knew I should have copyrighted that phrase.
Actually, that's trademark.
See... it's the PERMISSION part you keep leaving out of your examples.... you leave it out, because you know, without permission, you are in a morally grey area. And you are doing your best to free fan films from being morally grey.
The difference her is that they metaphorically want you to come and play with their toys...
CBS said:
CBS and Paramount Pictures are big believers in reasonable fan fiction and fan creativity, and, in particular, want amateur fan filmmakers to showcase their passion for Star Trek.
...So, what we have here is CBS saying "we love watching you play with our toys", but not explicitly granting permission to play with them.

I should point out that whether or not this situation is "fair" is not itself advocating for certain behaviors. We can have a discussion about the fairness of the guidelines without implying that people should willfully break them. The best solution for some people may be to simply walk away.
 
Star Trek Continues.

I know they are trying to tread as softly as possible while doing it, but they are technically violating them.

STC is defintiely treading into a gray area but I think they are counting on the fact that they have a good relationshipwith CBS, haven't tried to make a business out of star trek, and are going to close down after these last episodes means that C/P is going to leave them alone. They might be right and they might not, but my opinion is if CBS had an issue with them finishing up these last episodes like they are they would have already been contacted.
 
Fair enough. You get to the point where things get so heated you forget what thread your posting in. Perhaps the context of the thread has colored the responses of some of us in ways we hasn't intended.

I feel sad for the Axanar contributors, and mostly pity for Alec Peters. He's truly his own worst enemy.

I don't pity him. He knew what he was doing.
 
I've lost track of so many things that have happened in this whole story, but I don't remember seeing actual guidelines from Peters. I do remember him trying to get the different fan groups to come up with some together, was it part of that?

He came up with a list of proposed guidelines however he left loopholes in them you could drive a truck though would would have let axanar continue to do exactly what they were doing
 
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