Here is why canon is important to Trek.

[Jayson1]

Oh, c'mon. You're okay with TMP doing it but not when DSC does the exact same thing, that's all this comes down to. There's no substantive difference between TMP re-designing the Klingons and DSC re-designing the Klingons. (Or between TNG re-designing the Romulans and DSC re-designing the Klingons.)

Actually I don't mind that "Discovery" wants to remake the Klingons. I just don't like that they are supose to be in the prime universe. A 3rd universe would be great. Of course all these opinions are subject to change once we get a better idea on what the Klingons are going to be like on the show. If they still feel like Klingons in terms of personality and history then the new look will be easier to accept. Like most people my opinion isn't set in stone because how could it be! We only got a 2 minute clip. As a Trek fan though you can't help but speculate on ever little detail even before we see the finish product because that is in our nature.

Jason

 

[Ithekro]

The difference between TOS and TMP is not so much the time in universe, but time off screen with no VCRs or other devices existing for the most part until around the time TMP came out. In those days a creator could get away with stuff easier and say, "yeah they were always suppose to look like that". Today, with the Internet and us being long past VCR technology, stuff is at everyone's fingertips. It is more difficult to just present things like they aren't there.

Also changes seem to be more accepted when one goes forwards within a setting rather than going back and starting again while claiming (at least at first) that it is the same continuity. That just throws people off when you make them expect something and don't deliver on it. If someone is going to sell a show set ten years before Kirk take command of the Enterprise while claiming it is the Prime universe, one should expect things to looks at least somewhat like The Cage era.

If you aren't doing that, don't try to sell it like that.

 

[jaime]

Oh, c'mon. You're okay with TMP doing it but not when DSC does the exact same thing, that's all this comes down to. There's no substantive difference between TMP re-designing the Klingons and DSC re-designing the Klingons. (Or between TNG re-designing the Romulans and DSC re-designing the Klingons.)

There is though. One is the first iteration, a change glossed by other continuity...actors, etc...the second come after several hundred hours of established stuff, with no other points of concrete reference. You can make tiny changes and refine and retcon things, but there comes a point where an audience says 'this is a klingon'.

I have said it before and I will say it again...you don't get to say 'this show has been running x years' and sell anniversary goods to a fan base if it's patently not the same show. Triggers broom.

However, I don't think this will be a problem with DSC, nothing I have seen or heard says anything other than 'this is a modern show, set in Prime continuity'. People who have got their knickers in a twist are splitting hairs.

 

[Jayson1]

I think one issue not brought up is a suspension of disbelief. Whatever you do has to feel like it fits with other things in that universe and maybe what creates that feeling is a combination of things from writing to clothes to story concepts. "Enterprise" made plenty of changes from the rest of the Berman shows but it still felt like Berman era Trek. That is why even though I don't think the show got good until season 3 that it still feels like it belongs in that universe.
The Kelvin Universe felt like something really new and I loved it for what they were but what they weren't was Prime Trek which is fine. Nothing wrong with new Trek shows becoming their own thing.

Jason

 

[The Wormhole]

Both Ds9 and Voyager had plot-threads and arcs

DS9, yes, but that is often considered the red-headed step-child of the franchise, and it is documented that Berman wasn't thrilled that series was so serialized.

But you're going to argue Voyager had story arcs? WTF? It is documented fact that UPN rejected Braga's pitch for a season-long storyline and told him it couldn't be anything more than a two-parter.

and much as I am not it's fan...enterprise itself had some also.

Well, yeah, the last two seasons like I mentioned. Or are you referring to the first season with the TCW and the Vulcan/Andorian conflict? I guess that counts, though neither were addressed much in the second season.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The producers have already made it clear that Star Trek: Discovery's first season will comprise a single season-long arc, with a beginning, middle, and end. The era of truly episodic television is pretty much dead, and Star Trek can't be trapped in the 80s (or even the 90s or the 00s).

Hell, you could make a case that non-serialized storytelling was somewhat outmoded even back in the 80s when TNG premiered. The popular one-hour shows of that era were things like Hill Street Blues, St. Elsewhere, and L.A. Law -- All shows that had serialized storylines in addition to stories of the week.

Starship Troopers did the same thing with activating cadets and making them officers and solidiers later, but it seemed more reasonable somehow.

I think it's more forgivable in Starship Troopers because it was pretty much a satire to begin with.

Actually if you think about it, Trek09 and Starship Troopers are very similar, almost plot for plot. Troubled youth joining an organization, makes friends, a sudden attack on a planet , activating cadets to fight the aliens that did it, rivalry between cadets, senior officers gets killed, troubled youth saves the day, becomes the leader of the squad. (Starship Troopers)

Wow, that's... really accurate. Well done!

 

[jaime]

DS9, yes, but that is often considered the red-headed step-child of the franchise, and it is documented that Berman wasn't thrilled that series was so serialized.

But you're going to argue Voyager had story arcs? WTF? It is documented fact that UPN rejected Braga's pitch for a season-long storyline and told him it couldn't be anything more than a two-parter.

Well, yeah, the last two seasons like I mentioned. Or are you referring to the first season with the TCW and the Vulcan/Andorian conflict? I guess that counts, though neither were addressed much in the second season.

Voy was not as serialised as Ds9, but you still had things like Kes development, the Tom and B'Ellana relationship, the doctors development, the Seska arc, the Borg arc, frankly....there's loads, and they go a bit beyond 'character development' which is really just another way of describing a character arc. Voyagers premise itself is already an arc, as they are always getting closer to home. People may not like it, and it may serve certain arguments, but it's all definitely there.

 

[stardream]

Hell, you could make a case that non-serialized storytelling was somewhat outmoded even back in the 80s when TNG premiered. The popular one-hour shows of that era were things like Hill Street Blues, St. Elsewhere, and L.A. Law -- All shows that had serialized storylines in addition to stories of the week.

Even straight up procedurals like NCIS have 'mini-arcs' that run through each season.

Voyager had mini-arcs. Not many, but they existed. I would say the four episodes dealing with the Hirogen would count.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Hell, you could make a case that non-serialized storytelling was somewhat outmoded even back in the 80s when TNG premiered. The popular one-hour shows of that era were things like Hill Street Blues, St. Elsewhere, and L.A. Law -- All shows that had serialized storylines in addition to stories of the week.

I just noticed...At least as far as Trek...episodic shows really don't seem to develop characters all that much. It uses things like 'romance of the week' or developments that are easily forgotten by the next episode that doesn't really help the characters stand out and seem real.

Episodic characters--don't seem to change very much--they have same personality, no memory of life changing past events, except for the lead characters, anyway. Only the lead characters seem to have that privilege.

By the end of the show and movies you can look at what happened to characters like Geordi, or Beverly, they seemed stuck in a mold. The last movie gave them even less to do.

In Breaking Bad you can see how Walter White evolved from an ordinary, good natured teacher with cancer trying to provide for his family into an almost despicable drug lord.

Orange is the New Black is nothing but serialzed and it's extremely popular. I'm skeptical about the idea that people just starting to watch a serialized show won't be able to figure out and give up watching it. I would think it would have the opposite effect; make them watch more to figure things out.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

In Breaking Bad you can see how Walter White evolved from an ordinary, good natured teacher with cancer trying to provide for his family into an almost despicable drug lord.

Almost despicable? With all the heinous stuff that Walter White did over the course of that show, he was still only almost despicable? Are you sure you watched the series to the end?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Regardless of Kirk's status before, the field commission inserted him in to the chain of command at rank of lieutenant, with all the rights and privileges that come with it, including giving lawful orders.

I always interpreted it to mean that Kirk was about to formally graduate from the Academy with the rank of Lieutenant, just like his prime counterpart did. The hearing was just interrupted by the attack on Vulcan. So since Kirk would have received the rank of Lieutenant anyway (had the hearing concluded properly), that's why he has the rank in the film.

 

[fireproof78]

I always interpreted it to mean that Kirk was about to formally graduate from the Academy with the rank of Lieutenant, just like his prime counterpart did. The hearing was just interrupted by the attack on Vulcan. So since Kirk would have received the rank of Lieutenant anyway (had the hearing concluded properly), that's why he has the rank in the film.

I tend to agree with that point, and think it is supported by Saavik's rank in TWOK to TSFS, as they seem to be in a similar place in their Academy instruction, and she is a lieutenant afterwards.

 

[J.T.B.]

I always interpreted it to mean that Kirk was about to formally graduate from the Academy with the rank of Lieutenant, just like his prime counterpart did.

"But... that's not the way it happened!"

Kirk (TOS) clearly held the rank of ensign early in his career. Graduating two grades higher than everybody else is just silly.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Kirk had the (brevet) rank of Ensign while he was technically still at the Academy. He was taking a cadet cruise on the Republic.

 

[uniderth]

Wasn't he an instructor at the academy when he was a lieutenant, not a student(cadet).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ A distinct possibility. It's the most likely meaning of Gary Mitchell's line about "Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk! In his class, you either think or sink!" So it would probably mean that sometime after graduation, Kirk returned to the Academy to teach.

(After all, Gary never said he actually TOOK the class. )

 

[J.T.B.]

^ Kirk had the (brevet) rank of Ensign while he was technically still at the Academy. He was taking a cadet cruise on the Republic.

That's not supported by what's on screen.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ How so?

 

[J.T.B.]

^ How so?

1. There's no mention of a "brevet."
2. There's no mention of Kirk being on a cadet cruise.

These theories usually depend on Garrovick being Kirk's CO "from the day (he) left the Academy." But Garrovick could have been captain of both Republic and Farragut. And "lieutenant" Kirk in Farragut could actually have been a JG rather than a full lieutenant.

That is much preferable to the idea that commissioned rank is given to undergraduates at the Academy, where the whole point is to train them to the point where they can be commissioned. And the idea that immediately upon graduation the cadet would become a lieutenant, on an equal footing with officers with, say, five years (or however many suits you) of experience in the fleet, and jumping over all the serving ensigns and JG's is, as I said before, just silly.

 

[fireproof78]

"But... that's not the way it happened!"

Kirk (TOS) clearly held the rank of ensign early in his career. Graduating two grades higher than everybody else is just silly.

Even though Uhura had the rank of Lieutenant? What about Saavik in the Prime Timeline?