Why would Starfleet have such scant knowledge on Vulcan concepts like mind melds, pon farr, etc?

[at Quark's]

Just viewed the Voyager episode blood fever.

In this ep, the EMH goes like : 'yes, it's Pon Farr, but I know of no treatment. Starfleet knows actually very little about this condition, there's only a handful of observations ever made by Starfleet doctors. Let's improvise!'. We get statements in the same vein whenever we encounter stuff like mindmelds and such.

Which frankly astounds me.

I would think the Vulcans, as a species valuing logic above all else, and being a founding member of the Federation, would have given Starfleet (and other member species) free access to all their medical texts. Why hold anything back, as one of the goals of the Federation is the promulgation and sharing of knowledge? It seems to be that way for other Federation members, so why not for the Vulcans? Sure, these specific matters are considered intensely private, but there must be a sizable body of (anonymized) observations and treatments that have been thought out by Vulcan doctors over the centuries, right ? Or am I really to believe that no Vulcan has ever done some research in this direction over the millennia because of some taboo?

Speaking of which, why are Vulcans so secretive about Pon Farr and other 'typical Vulcan things' in the first place? Wouldn't a truly logical approach be to simply acknowledge that e.g. Pon Farr is a fact of their biology, hence it's useless to attach shame to it, and deal with it as best as they can without trying to cover it up? The way they actually deal with these matters seem to cause them a lot of unnecessary problems ...

Incidentally, this episode has one of the EMH's better oneliners

VORIK: I have always had great respect for B'Elanna. I hope she isn't too upset with me.
EMH: With Lieutenant Torres, upset is a relative term.

(edit: unfortunately spotted spelling error in title only after placing this thread and now I cannot correct it)

 

[Timo]

Surely there would be inherent logic in keeping your cards close to your chest? Especially from assorted "allies" of dubious loyalty, in positions so close to you that betrayal would really hurt.

Logic is just a method for pursuing a goal - logically, it cannot dictate goals, which typically are infinite, and even within most sets of constraints remain attainable in great diversity. You can pursue racism logically, you can pursue pantheism logically, you can pursue pride or shame logically. And Vulcans do.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shawnster]

Logic aside, there had been over 200 years of interaction between Vulcan and humans by that point in Voyager. Sarek had married 2 humans. Dr M'Benga studied or interned on Vulcan. It stands to reason there had been numerous non Vulcans visiting and living on Vulcan in that time period. 2017 years of cultural exchange. If Vulcan is a society with freedom of speech, press, etc... then there really is no reason so much of Vulcan is still unknown or secret to human or Starfleet databases.

We are not talking allies. We are talking full partners or members of the Federation and Starfleet. The Intrepid had over 400 Vulcans. We have seen several other Vulcans in Starfleet. It's not credible basic biological functions would be unknown or secret.

 

[Timo]

We are being told in no uncertain words that Vulcans as individuals would choose to exercise whatever freedoms they have for keeping pon farr secret. Indeed, they would rather give up their lives than divulge the secret.

Yes, Vulcans are full and influential members of the UFP. That influence no doubt helps them in enforcing the secrecy. Every culture has its hang-ups, and I doubt humans of the future are any more keen on, say, revealing their religious or political views or sexual orientation than humans of today. The difference simply is that Vulcans are more monobloc - as far as we can tell, they all follow the same Surakist faith, even if with minor variations (and dissenters like Sybok are banished), and they all actively preach it, and similarly we can speculate they all have one and the same religious-philosophical attitude towards babbling about their sexuality, with dissent weeded out millennia ago.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

Speaking of which, why are Vulcans so secretive about Pon Farr and other 'typical Vulcan things' in the first place? Wouldn't a truly logical approach be to simply acknowledge that e.g. Pon Farr is a fact of their biology, hence it's useless to attach shame to it, and deal with it as best as they can without trying to cover it up?

Embarrassment, pure and simple. Vulcans strive to purge themselves of emotion, and ponn farr is an unfortunate reminder that emotions still exist within them.

The way they actually deal with these matters seem to cause them a lot of unnecessary problems ...

Indeed, the whole thing of repressing their emotions really works against them, since when ponn farr does strike, it's obvious to everyone around them on account of the fact that they are suddenly emoting. Then combine with the fact they and their families have to drop what they are doing just so they can go to the ancestral grounds, go through a whole ceremony, so that the logical couple can have sex. The alternative is death, or killing someone, which apparently is permissible in this circumstance.

Now, consider the possibility that the Romulans experience ponn farr. Only for them, being a race which does not repress emotions it isn't really noticeable at all. If anything, Alidar Roklem likely just seems to be having a bad day to his peers. After a hard day's work snapping at his co-workers and hiding uncomfortable boners around the attractive Romulans at the office, Mr. Roklem hits a night club, scores some tail, and gets laid. The next day he's in a much better mood, all is normal, there's no serious disruption to anyone's lives.

I hate to say it, but the Romulans certainly handle this matter a lot more logically than the Vulcans do.

 

[Shawnster]

We are being told in no uncertain words that Vulcans as individuals would choose to exercise whatever freedoms they have for keeping pon farr secret. Indeed, they would rather give up their lives than divulge the secret.


Timo Saloniemi

As an individual I keep my sex life and mating habits private, too. But there is numerous data out there about my species practices and customs.

 

[The Old Mixer]

(edit: unfortunately spotted spelling error in title only after placing this thread and now I cannot correct it)

 

[at Quark's]

Embarrassment, pure and simple. Vulcans strive to purge themselves of emotion, and ponn farr is an unfortunate reminder that emotions still exist within them.

I can understand that. What I don't understand is that Vulcans never seem to realise that that embarrassment itself is a pretty emotional response if they are so fond of purging any trace of emotion in themselves.

Thanks!

 

[Timo]

Embarrassment, pure and simple. Vulcans strive to purge themselves of emotion, and ponn farr is an unfortunate reminder that emotions still exist within them.

I can understand that. What I don't understand is that Vulcans never seem to realise that that embarrassment itself is a pretty emotional response if they are so fond of purging any trace of emotion in themselves.

'Course, the emotions they want and need to purge are the violent and possessive ones. Embarrassment is neither, not until it manifests in a desire to fling plomeek soup at dangerous velocities. But lust for a mate is apparently and understandably both.

Then combine with the fact they and their families have to drop what they are doing just so they can go to the ancestral grounds, go through a whole ceremony, so that the logical couple can have sex.

I doubt "Amok Time" is a good example of what usually happens, what with T'Pau herself being there but, say, Sarek and Amanda not getting as much as a mention.

Although it could play out that way normally, too, just at a lower level of prestige: the local assistant priestess sighs, dons her robes and drags herself to the back alley where the couple of local lads slug it out while the young lady conducts business with her earcomputer and occasionally watches. The embarrassed relatives later receive an official record in a brown envelope, which they promptly recycle.

The alternative is death, or killing someone, which apparently is permissible in this circumstance.

The fun thing is that this never happens. Nobody ever dies in Vulcan mating rituals, including the ones where there's no success in finding a mate.

I can see the basis for the ritual easily enough: in a small desert village, two males vie for one female, and the loser must die lest he foment further aggression out of hellishly Vulcanoid jealousy. Outsourcing the execution to the other suitor meets all sorts of psychological needs for the parties involved, including the greater community. But that's for extreme cases, and modern practices can forgo the execution, since the sore loser now can migrate or pop a pill or whatnot.

The other thing that never happens in connection with pon farr is, amusingly enough, sex. The whole thing is described as a mate-choosing process, not a copulation-enabling or copulation-dictating act. I guess Vulcans handle sex logically enough, meaning they don't get too embarrassed about it - it's just the choosing that they'd like to do logically, too, only they can't.

(There's always ST3:TSfS where copulation is implicit, but the brief scenes describe whole decades of the accelerated life of young Spock, so the timing can be considered coincidental at best.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[UnknownSample]

There are plenty of Vulcans IN Starfleet, and they of course know about these things, so Starfleet knows, sort of. As for the other peoples, they know how to mind their own business. That seems to be the main difference between the future and now.

 

[at Quark's]

^Respecting privacy is a good thing, but within limits. In this particular episode (Blood Fever), I'd say the situation is beyond such limits.

There's severe medical danger to B'elanna (a non-vulcan), who gets 'infected' with Pon Farr, and I'd say the Vulcans on board are morally obliged to divulge any information on the subject that may be relevant and helpful. Which, thankfully, they indeed do.

 

[Timo]

The interesting thing is what happens next. Does Starfleet Medical erase the gained knowledge from the EMH database while the people involved are sworn to secrecy under pain of X? If the people say no, what happens - does Dr Pulaski step out of the shadows and perform a memory wipe?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

'
The other thing that never happens in connection with pon farr is, amusingly enough, sex. The whole thing is described as a mate-choosing process, not a copulation-enabling or copulation-dictating act. I guess Vulcans handle sex logically enough, meaning they don't get too embarrassed about it - it's just the choosing that they'd like to do logically, too, only they can't.
Timo Saloniemi

In that case, what exactly happens in those holoprograms intended to aid Vorik and Tuvok by programming an artificial mate (or in Tuvok's case, a copy of his wife)?

 

[BillJ]

We are being told in no uncertain words that Vulcans as individuals would choose to exercise whatever freedoms they have for keeping pon farr secret. Indeed, they would rather give up their lives than divulge the secret.

Every Vulcan though? We see the "Vulcans-with-emotion" in Enterprise have no issue sharing. One of the problems with creating a culture where everyone supposedly thinks the same way.

 

[Timo]

Why is that a "problem"? It's not a problem for North Korea, at least not a problem that cannot be dealt with. And Vulcans/Romulans could well live on that peninsula, all things considered.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Why is that a "problem"? It's not a problem for North Korea, at least not a problem that cannot be dealt with. And Vulcans/Romulans could well live on that peninsula, all things considered.

North Korea is surrounded on all sides by enemies, and even with that, we know quite a bit about them. Vulcans freely roam the Federation. It would be impossible to keep a lid on mind melds and Pon Farr. Do they restrict access to everything about their culture? No stories or anything else about Pon Farr outside of Vulcan medical dictionaries? No "Romeo and Juliet" where Romeo has to fight to the death for Juliet's love?

We have to buy into the idea that McCoy is the only doctor in 200 years outside of Vulcan to see a Vulcan in heat, and the only one to put the pieces together.

It's non-sense.

 

[uniderth]

My theory is that Vulcanians tend to not stray too far from home or at least know well enough in advance to schedule leave so no one ever sees them as emotional. Spock on the other hand was hoping it would never happen to him.

One thing later Treks seem to have forgotten is that place is just as important to Pon Farr as the seven year cycle. They must return to a specific place or die. So I doubt you would find any Vulcanians more than 3.5 years travel from Vulcan(is). Which, admittedly, is a pretty far distance with warp drive.

...in Enterprise...

Well there's your problem.

 

[BillJ]

My theory is that Vulcanians tend to not stray too far from home or at least know well enough in advance to schedule leave so no one ever sees them as emotional. Spock on the other hand was hoping it would never happen to him.

I really don't think that's possible. But, even if it is, sometimes cycles get knocked out of whack for whatever reason.

Earth and Vulcan have had a relationship for two centuries by the time of TOS. No biographies or popular culture have made it off world in that time? No one has went there and studied Vulcan society and published their findings? Even though humans have been allowed to work in their hospitals (M'benga). No tourists have ever went there?

I find the Vulcan culture as presented, much like every other Trek culture, highly implausible.

 

[at Quark's]

There must be a lot of rumours though. Even species 8472 knows about Pon Farr. In in the flesh, "Archer" invites Chakotay to Pon farr night in the Vulcan nightclub ... one wonders how accurate that 8472 recreation was ....

 

[uniderth]

I really don't think that's possible. But, even if it is, sometimes cycles get knocked out of whack for whatever reason.

Well the only known exception is when Spock alludes to "extreme feminine beauty" being disturbing.

I find the Vulcan culture as presented, much like every other Trek culture, highly implausible.

Well certainly.