But these these things are objective, to a degree. For instance, Rey objectively had much less struggle than Luke, and that subjectively makes for a much less interesting character.
The Star Wars problem
- Thread starter Shinzon4u
- Start date
We agree on that point. I did not think he would turn that way either, though I did not think it would be a "drunk on power" plot either.
Again, subjective. Rey was more engaging for me than Anakin, Luke or Obi-Wan.
Luke was wish fulfillment for me, while Rey was engaging on a character level, making me want to know more about her and see her continue on. Both succeed as heroes as I want them to have victory at the end of the story.
We are told in the PT and OT about the great Anakin Skywalker. In the OT we only really see what he became, Darth Vader. In the PT we get small windows of what are probably his worst moments, while getting told about his better moments through banter between him and Obi-wan, or tales he tells to Padme. We never really get to see the hero spoken of by these people (including Anakin himself). We never get to see, Anakin Skywalker, Hero. Show, not tell, remember. We are told about this hero, but we never are really shown this hero.
This was were TCW comes it. Show not tell. We get a bunch of episodes to show us the hero that was known as Anakin Skywalker. The man that would one day be Darth Vader. We see him at his best and sometimes at his worst. However his actions (movements, sometimes even speech pattern) reflect on what he will be, and what we are told he was by the people who knew him best. And TCW Anakin can be dark....really dark. Almost as dark as his future self. He just always has something to bring him back during TCW....be it Padme, Obi-wan, or Ahsoka...about the only three positive people he might listen to in the moment before falling to the dark side. Might. Sometimes he doesn't.
As for the 2003 Clone Wars series...that was made between Episode II and Episode III. They are going to try to match what they are filming.
By 2008, hindsight for Lucas present an opportunity, and he took it.
This was were TCW comes it. Show not tell. We get a bunch of episodes to show us the hero that was known as Anakin Skywalker. The man that would one day be Darth Vader. We see him at his best and sometimes at his worst. However his actions (movements, sometimes even speech pattern) reflect on what he will be, and what we are told he was by the people who knew him best. And TCW Anakin can be dark....really dark. Almost as dark as his future self. He just always has something to bring him back during TCW....be it Padme, Obi-wan, or Ahsoka...about the only three positive people he might listen to in the moment before falling to the dark side. Might. Sometimes he doesn't.
As for the 2003 Clone Wars series...that was made between Episode II and Episode III. They are going to try to match what they are filming.
By 2008, hindsight for Lucas present an opportunity, and he took it.
This is one of the complaints I never really understood. The opening act of RotS shows it in spades. Now, when I say this people then say "but that's not enough!" or they try to minimize his heroism in those scenes.
The biggest reason why the opening act of RotS works so well as a showcase of Anakin's character is actually because of the contrast with the last time we saw him in AotC, where he not only defied Obi-Wan at every turn (especially in the Dooku fight) but actually broke the Jedi code in the last scene of the film.
The opening shot of RotS is one long take of Anakin and Obi-Wan flying in sync. This is a SUBLIME "show don't tell" moment, and the rest of the opening act just reinforces the contrast between the two films. The Dooku fight in RotS when Obi Wan and Anakin decide to fight him together is a very strong way to show just how changed they are.
And of course all the banter and all the life saving.
RotS more than pulled its weight as far as "Anakin the hero" goes.
Until Anakin starts whining at the Council again. Unfortunately, that undermines his character quite a bit, and diminishes my investment in him as a character, which, unfortunately, was not that much to begin with.
This would show the PT was a series about events more than characters. The plot points to get from A to B to C, all predetermined by the OT, had to be reached. Sometimes things seem to happen too quickly or too unconvincingly for the character to be a character rather than a plot point or a require event (almost like a cut scene in a game that you can't skip, you can't avoid, nor do you have any choices, even if it in no way reflect how you've played). The events depicted in TCW seem to been handle to progression of the eventual fall of Anakin Skywalker from were we saw him both in AOTC (as well as by the time of his knighting in the 2003 Clone Wars series) to ROTS (with the potential final act of the 2003 series still being there either right before going to or right after Anakin leaves Ahsoka on Mandalore and before they get to Coruscant). After that, his fall is believable. Not only his unwillingness to let go, his desire for more knowledge of power to protect his family, but also his greater distaste for the Jedi Council and his willingness to go against the Jedi on Palpatine's command. Also his even closer ties to Palpatine.
The problem here is that the audience doesn't go for it. If the only cheers received by the "heroes" is for R2-D2 you have done it wrong.
It doesn't do any such thing though. Anakin is caught between light and dark, between desire and serenity, between petulance and maturity.
Palpatine is of the dark side and taints Anakin with a selfish streak that he didn't have as a child. In fact, in TPM he's very selfless in his kindness towards the helpless visitors.
For example, in AotC we see Palpatine filling Anakin's head with visions of great power "I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin", which Anakin repeats later in the film "I will be the most... powerful Jedi ever!".
There are examples of his internal struggle between his two "parents" throughout RotS and AotC.
Anakin "whining" in RotS is his Palpatine-tainted psyche rearing its head. He feels entitled to things he knows he shouldn't- "Something's happening to me. I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more.. but I know I shouldn't."
But I'm an audience member and I went for it.
Certainly, and I engage on a cerebral level. I can understand Anakin's plight. However, there is no emotional connection to the character, so any artistic staying power on an emotional level for me.
Secondly, it's frustrating because the corrupting influence is told to us, and inferred, not shown, as a ten year lapse between TPM and AOTC. So, instead of Palaptine filling his head on screen, it is imply implied by AOTC, meaning that the "struggle" has already taken place, with the seeds being planted. Again, Anakin's psyche is tainted by Palpatine, meaning that his disagreement with Obi-Wan is a mix of that influence and his teenage angst. So, we don't see the good, save for brief snippets in TPM. Again, a lack of emotional investment in the character and his turn to the Dark.
I already showed that we do indeed see the good, and the Palpatine thing is set up in TPM ("we will watch your career with great interest"), fast forwarding 10 years isn't bad story telling because then Lucas both tells AND shows Palpatine and Anakin together in AotC and the effects of that conversation that he SHOWED throughout the remainder of the movie(s).
We never see adult Anakin as anything but a spoiler, whiny brat. Full of himself and rather annoying. It's hard to even reconcile that with the kid we saw in TPM.
Did you not see the opening act of Revenge of The Sith?
Or any of the scenes where he bears his soul to Padme?
He can and does act very mature some of the time. Regardless of what you think of it acting wise, the things Anakin says in the fireplace scene are very intelligent.
The incredibly horrible dialogs must have made me missed the "intelligent" things he has said. To me he sounds like a 15-year-old trying to sound intelligent.
Well for one he is 19, so you're not for off. Secondly, the way he conveys his pain in a well laid out manner at that age is a sign of intelligence I think.
The biggest thing I notice about people who dislike the PT is how uncharitable they are to the story GL is telling.
All this talk about Anakin "whining". It always seems to me that even though the PT is technically identical to GL's other 3 films filmmaking competence wise, people are just so incensed at the story he told and how unsympathetic and immature they perceive both Anakin and the story as clouds their ability to look at the films objectively.
Lucas made THX-1138 which is a very dark and sexual film. He put Jar Jar is Star Wars because Jar Jar serves a purpose in Star Wars. People don't want Ewoks, they want ESB, but George has a made darker films than ESB- he CHOOSES to unfold the trilogy the way he does, whiny petulance and all.
I rambled.
No, just no.
First of all I find it pretty dismissive to claim people who disagree with your opinion can't be objective.
And then there are good reasons to question the claim that the PT shows as much "filmmaking competence" as the old movies. They have big issues with how the tone keeps changing (from silly to very dark in the matter of just a moment) and there are more things to complain about, too.
Having said that, episode 5 and 6 benefit from Lucas not having been the director. His directing is pretty... pedestrian.
1. THX 1138 is a better directorial showing than any of the Star Wars movies.
2. Irvin Kershner is the very definition of a pedestrian director. Look at the rest of his filmography. Robocop 2? Never Say Never Again? Come on. Lucas' ideas are why people remember ESB (I am your father etc...)
3. Lucas pretty much directed RotJ, as ESB went so far over budget and Lucas had put every cent he had into it, he couldn't afford to have RotJ leave him and Marcia literally penniless and homeless- so he more closely supervised RotJ, was there on set every day, and was usually operating the B camera.
This is all in both a book called "Skywalking: The life and Films of George Lucas", and in the comments that everyone from Mark Hammil to David Lynch have made about how GL more or less directed RotJ.
The two or three times I saw it in the theater the only cheer moments for the audience as a unit during the opening act were for R2-D2.
And?
Are you implying that me, an audience member, is lying?
