The Classic/Retro Pop Culture Thread

[Skipper]

Noting that a thing is popular is not at all the same thing as critical acclaim. Critical acclaim means that critics are saying a show is good. That has always been a very, very different issue from whether a show is successful. I didn't follow either Magnum or Miami Vice, but I have the impression that they were both considered to be fairly conventional, lowbrow action-adventure shows, although the latter was more stylistically cutting-edge.

Obviously it is a bit difficult to find reviews of the time, so I link here some musings of modern reviewers.

TV (The Book): Two Experts Pick the Greatest American Shows of All Time

Television critics Alan Sepinwall and Matt Zoller Seitz ranked Miami Vice as the 51st greatest American television series of all time in their 2016 book titled TV (The Book), with Seitz stating how the show was more influenced by 1960s art house cinema from Europe than by any other contemporary television drama: "Miami Vice superimposed 'ripped-from-the-headlines' details about drug smuggling, arms dealing, and covert war onto a pastel noir dreamscape. It gave American TV its first visionary existential drama"

Miami Vice box set review: Crockett and Tubbs still thrill in espadrilles - With its anti-heroes and experiments with form, Miami Vice was a key influence on the development of today’s complex, grownup TV

It doesn’t just cast a shadow over every subsequent TV show set in Miami, from Dexter to Nip/Tuck. With its cinematic sensibility, charming anti-heroes and existential montages, it paved the way for our golden age of deluxe cable TV.

Miami Vice TV Review: Part 1 (Why It’s Good)

The first two seasons, once they hit their stride, can generally be pointed to as masterpieces.

Revisiting ‘Miami Vice’ - 1980s noir (in pastels)

Miami Vice took the TV policier in an entirely new direction, blending the clean, well-lighted places of 1980s Miami with the dark sensibilities of 1940s film noir, exposing a bleak undercurrent of corruption and violence. Even during Vice's network run, many critics were dazzled by its seductive veneer of conspicuous-consumption excess, the Ferraris and Versace clothes and Arquitectonica houses, and couldn’t see past it, thinking that the glitz and glamour was all there was. They were wrong.

In fairness, it was an easy mistake to make. It was hard not to be distracted by the look of Vice, because visually and stylistically, nothing quite like it had ever been seen before on network TV. Executive producer Michael Mann approached television from a cinematic perspective, not just in the obvious aspects of production design such as wardrobe, sets, and props, but at the deepest level of the cinematography, the lighting of scenes, framing of shots, and editing of sequences.

BINGE WATCHIN' TV REVIEW: MIAMI VICE

I wouldn’t say “Miami Vice” is on-par with the best cable dramas, but as far as network TV goes it remains one of the best shows of its kind ever made. Several episodes are perfect little mini-movies, and the iconic clothes, music and performances make this a vital piece of eighties nostalgia and a trip well-worth taking, especially for curious Michael Mann fans.

Miami Vice (TV Milestones Series)

Tv Museum

As Film Comment critic Richard T. Jameson commented, "It's hard to forbear saying, every five minutes or so, 'I can't believe this was shot for television!'" Miami Vice was one of the most visually stylized programs of the 1980s and it drew its stylistic inspiration from the cinema's film noir. It incorporated unconventional camera angles, high contrast lighting, stark black-and-white sets, and striking deep focus to generate unusually dynamic, imbalanced, noir compositions that could have been lifted from Double Indemnity (1944) or Touch of Evil (1958). Miami Vicelooked quite unlike anything else on television at the time.

Miami Vice (along with Hill Street Blues and Cagney and Lacey) was one of the ground breaking police programs of the 1980s. Its influence can be tracked in the moral ambiguity of NYPD Blue and the visual experimentation ofHomicide.

 

[Christopher]

Well, a lot of shows that are appreciated in retrospect were not all that well-loved by critics in their time. But as I said, I never really followed Miami Vice. My impression was that it was not especially well-regarded, but maybe that's because of the ways it was parodied in other pop culture. As for Magnum, I never got the sense that it was considered any more special than any other popular TV action or detective show.

 

[Skipper]

As for Magnum, I never got the sense that it was considered any more special than any other popular TV action or detective show.

Oh yes, it was. Some episodes, like Did You See the Sun Rise? are considered milestones for the U.S. scripted television.

However, my point is: when @Korusan asked for some suggestions, I tried to recommend some show where there is some form of critical consensus about their quality. There are any shows on that list that I liked the first time I watched them and now I don't recommend? Yes, of course. But it was more than thirty years ago, and I really don't know how much have in common @Korusan and that kid that so desperately craved for any kind of sci-fi tv show.

Anyone want to recommend other shows? Please, be my guest, the more the merrier But if I didn't named your favorite show, it doesn't mean I'm denigrating it or whatever. because, you know, tastes differ.

For example The Phoenix isn't a show I would recommend, but if @Korusan wanted to watch it, well, I would be quite curious about his/her opinion...

 

[RJDiogenes]

The series was pretty inconsistent. I'm glad they got rid of Robin Maxwell - whiny brat. Her kid was more grown-up than she was. I liked Kyle Bates, though, and I'll watch anything Duncan Regehr is in.

The thing I remember most about the series is that the lizards in human costumes forgot that they were lizards in human costumes. There were the lizards who got married in a human marriage ceremony while in human costume, for example. And, best of all, there was Diana having a relaxing bubble bath in her full-body human suit.

There were only 4 episodes, so it was a "blink and you'll miss it" kind of thing. I've seen some decent fanfic stories, though - I have a fanzine that's all Phoenix stories.

Interesting. I didn't realize there were so few. I wonder if there were unaired episodes.

I don't know if it was on PBS. I saw it on YTV, a Canadian channel that showed mostly youth-oriented shows and music videos. I'd already read the novels it was based on, and I liked the actors they chose to play the main characters. But the plot of the TV series veered off into territory that was never in the novels, so as I said, the story was left unfinished.

According to Wiki, it was indeed a BBC production, so if it was shown here it would have been on PBS (the home of Doctor Who in those days). I might see if I can pick it up on DVD. Which reminds me of something else from the 80s: The BBC adaptation of Hitchhiker's Guide, which had a very Doctor Who aesthetic.

Yep. Roddy McDowall was a huge reason why I liked that show. And I'll admit that I found Ike Eisenmann kinda cute at that age. I found the episodes online last year and rewatched them... cringe. Most of them were absolutely awful, plot-wise and a lot of the acting was really sub-par. But it was still nice to revisit an old favorite program. I liked the main cast then and the only one I didn't care for on rewatching it was Katie Saylor (the Atlantean woman).

Fantastic Journey is definitely something I'd pick up on DVD if I could-- I love obscure B-Movies and B-TV Shows.

 

[Skipper]

And, best of all, there was Diana having a relaxing bubble bath in her full-body human suit.

Or when they were sun-bathing in swimming suits. What exactly they were trying to tan here...?

 

[Timewalker]

Which reminds me of something else from the 80s: The BBC adaptation of Hitchhiker's Guide, which had a very Doctor Who aesthetic.

I loved the TV version of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The Doctor Who aesthetic is no coincidence. Douglas Adams wrote for Doctor Who, in the late Tom Baker era, when Romana II was the main companion.

 

[Timewalker]

But if I didn't named your favorite show, it doesn't mean I'm denigrating it or whatever. because, you know, tastes differ.

I didn't say you denigrated them because you didn't mention them. I said that because you posted a link to a list of '80s SF shows and said the only good ones were TNG, The Twilight Zone, and Max Headroom - and the rest were awful (or whatever other negative adjectives were used).

 

[Skipper]

I didn't say you denigrated them because you didn't mention them. I said that because you posted a link to a list of '80s SF shows and said the only good ones were TNG, The Twilight Zone, and Max Headroom - and the rest were awful (or whatever other negative adjectives were used).

Yes, I expressed an opinion. The world is full of them. But for some reason, you are taking any opinion that differs from yours as a personal matter. Considering that:

1. @Korusan asked for some suggestion
   
2. I don't know him/her personally. I don't know what s/he likes or don't like. I don't know if s/he prefer camp sci-fi, serious sci-fi, adventure sci-fi or whatever
3. There are some tv show on that list that probably I would watch again but I rationally know that are not very good, especially for a modern viewer.
4. I don't believe that my personal tastes are universal truths (wouldn't be this, I don't know, arrogant?). And I know there can't be a objective judgment on a work of fiction. So I tried to suggest tv shows where are some form of consensus about their quality.

So I'm not denigrating any of those other shows. I'm not saying that you are stupid for liking them or whatever. Would @Korusan love The Phoenix? Sure, why not. But from a pure statistical point of view it seems to me a little unlikely. But if I knew a little more about @Korusan's tastes, I would probably recommend other shows from that list.

 

[Timewalker]

Yes, I expressed an opinion. The world is full of them. But for some reason, you are taking any opinion that differs from yours as a personal matter. Considering that:

1. @Korusan asked for some suggestion
   
2. I don't know him/her personally. I don't know what s/he likes or don't like. I don't know if s/he prefer camp sci-fi, serious sci-fi, adventure sci-fi or whatever
3. There are some tv show on that list that probably I would watch again but I rationally know that are not very good, especially for a modern viewer.
4. I don't believe that my personal tastes are universal truths (wouldn't be this, I don't know, arrogant?). And I know there can't be a objective judgment on a work of fiction. So I tried to suggest tv shows where are some form of consensus about their quality.

So I'm not denigrating any of those other shows. I'm not saying that you are stupid for liking them or whatever. Would @Korusan love The Phoenix? Sure, why not. But from a pure statistical point of view it seems to me a little unlikely. But if I knew a little more about @Korusan's tastes, I would probably recommend other shows from that list.

Leaving me out of the equation, the fact remains that you posted a list of TV shows, and said that only three were any good and the rest were terrible. You would have said that no matter if I were on this forum or not.

So no, it's not personal. I merely commented that most of the shows you denigrated were ones that happened to be favorites of mine.

Can we just drop this?

 

[Skipper]

Can we just drop this?

Yes, please. Absolutely. Thank you.

 

[J.T.B.]

Noting that a thing is popular is not at all the same thing as critical acclaim. Critical acclaim means that critics are saying a show is good. That has always been a very, very different issue from whether a show is successful. I didn't follow either Magnum or Miami Vice, but I have the impression that they were both considered to be fairly conventional, lowbrow action-adventure shows, although the latter was more stylistically cutting-edge.

I think "Magnum" was dismissed at first as lightweight or lowbrow by some critics focusing on the surface, the image of hunk Tom Selleck driving around in a red Ferrari and hanging out on Hawaii beaches. But by the end of its run I think it was quite a bit more respected, as people realized that it had playfully subverted and re-purposed the image, and had developed into a show with deep character relationships, an appealing company of recurring players, an overarching sense of its own history and the ability to pull off comedy as easily as action or suspense.

Even early on, though, some people saw deeper layers to it. In the "Magnum" press clippings archived here, there is a Village Voice article from 1982 called "Magnum's America: 'Nam and Apple Pie" that thoughtfully identifies some of the elements that made Magnum P.I. a classic series, IMO.

Miami Vice of course set itself up quite consciously to be evaluated on its image and style. And actually it got pretty good critical notice in the beginning, as well as Emmy nominations. It was influential in bringing art-film techniques to TV, for an uncompromising view of the underworld and drug trade (though definitely emphasizing the glamorous) and for giving the audience the benefit of the doubt in following sometimes complex plots. And of course for pushing the boundaries of what sex and violence could be shown on network TV (one with guest star Melanie Griffith was never repeated on NBC because of a sex scene). It could definitely rely on the visuals to carry thin writing sometimes, though. I watched quite a few a year or two ago, and found it didn't hold up that well after the first season. Mostly OK, not great.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Wow, three singles from bands I like that I'm not familiar with.

"Mirage" I'd definitely heard on oldies radio over the years, but I was less familiar with the Raiders song and unfamiliar with the Temptations song when I discovered them while building my playlists. For the Temptations, I imagine it's probably an underappreciated period...caught between their earlier stone-cold classics and the distinctive psychedelic soul sound that they'd soon help to pioneer.

And one of the all-time classics.

Interesting thing I read about "Respect"...it was written and originally recorded by Otis Redding...Aretha, in not just swapping genders but reworking the lyrics accordingly, made her version the definitive one and a feminist anthem. (Plus she added the most distinctive part of the song, the "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" part.)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Magnum was a good show.

 

[Skipper]

Magnum was a good show.

Yep. And just to stay in theme, Donald P. Bellisario, the creator of Quantum Leap, was one of the co-creators (with Glen A. Larson) of Magnum P.I.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Kung Fu
"Dark Angel"
Originally aired November 11, 1972.

Caine shows a recently blinded preacher, Serenity Johnson (John Carradine), how to rely on his other senses. Serenity, in turn, uses his new awareness to persuade Caine's closed-minded grandfather to accept the wandering monk.

Oh yeah, here it is, second regular episode...the beginning of Caine's quest to find his brother via meeting his grandfather. I'd forgotten that the preacher factored into it. Robert Carradine also guest-stars as Serenity's mute companion.

There's some arrow business in this one...Caine swats several aside with one hand before catching and breaking one.

Caine seems more canny here than he comes off in some episodes that I've recently seen on in the background, the way he deals with Serenity's desire for the gold.

Some good scenes exploring getting by without sight...and it makes sense for Caine to know about this, since he learned from Master Po. Apparently Serenity even got some of that Master Po-brand staff training somewhere between scenes.

A 10-day hunger/thirst strike sounds pretty badass, but can even a Shaolin survive that long without water? What objects did Grandpa Caine give Kwai Chang? The episode doesn't give us a good look. One seemed like a pocket watch and the other seemed very small...a cuff link?

Caine's grandfather doesn't seem to be quite old enough...33-year age difference, so he could be by a stretch, but it's not likely. He's only three years older than John Carradine.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Or when they were sun-bathing in swimming suits. What exactly they were trying to tan here...?

Right. Apparently space lizards suffer from mammal envy.

I loved the TV version of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The Doctor Who aesthetic is no coincidence. Douglas Adams wrote for Doctor Who, in the late Tom Baker era, when Romana II was the main companion.

It's like they were set in the same universe. I've got the DVD set, and I like the aesthetic a lot more than the big-budget movie that came out years later.

Miami Vice of course set itself up quite consciously to be evaluated on its image and style.

We used to call it MTV Vice.

Interesting thing I read about "Respect"...it was written and originally recorded by Otis Redding...Aretha, in not just swapping genders but reworking the lyrics accordingly, made her version the definitive one and a feminist anthem. (Plus she added the most distinctive part of the song, the "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" part.)

I don't think I knew that. I'll have to track down the Otis Redding version and compare.

There's some arrow business in this one...Caine swats several aside with one hand before catching and breaking one.

Yeah! That's what I'm thinking of.

A 10-day hunger/thirst strike sounds pretty badass, but can even a Shaolin survive that long without water?

According to lore, yes, they can do that and other superhuman things. Whether it's true or not, I don't know.

What objects did Grandpa Caine give Kwai Chang? The episode doesn't give us a good look. One seemed like a pocket watch and the other seemed very small...a cuff link?

Not sure. I don't remember that.

Caine's grandfather doesn't seem to be quite old enough...33-year age difference, so he could be by a stretch, but it's not likely. He's only three years older than John Carradine.

Teen pregnancy existed in the Old West.

 

[Timewalker]

It's like they were set in the same universe. I've got the DVD set, and I like the aesthetic a lot more than the big-budget movie that came out years later.

I have to correct myself. Douglas Adams started writing for Doctor Who during the Key to Time season, which explains why I nearly quit watching in the first 3 minutes of "The Pirate Planet." He wrote that, and at the time I hadn't read any Hitchhiker's books or seen the TV series. It takes a particular frame of mind to enjoy Adams' humor and satire, and I had yet to learn that.

Peter Davison was in both series, btw. In the Hitchhiker's Guide episode where they went to the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, Davison played The Dish of the Day.

Arthur Dent would probably have had just as perplexing a time if he'd traveled in the TARDIS, although he might have had more access to tea and ginger beer (two beverages the Fourth Doctor liked).

 

[Skipper]

Right. Apparently space lizards suffer from mammal envy.

Very big "envies"...

Spoiler: NSW? I don't know...

... ok I'll find my way out....

 

[The Old Mixer]

Not sure. I don't remember that.

Yeah, Grandpa Caine said one object belonged to his father, and one to Kwai Chang's father...don't remember which now. I'll have to keep an eye open if these come up again.

Teen pregnancy existed in the Old West.

If one wanted to take that seriously, you'd have to factor in that Kwai Chang's father was previously married and had a son 3 or 4 years older than KC.

KC? Oh geez, now there's an association that isn't going to go away easily....

 

[J.T.B.]

Interesting thing I read about "Respect"...it was written and originally recorded by Otis Redding...Aretha, in not just swapping genders but reworking the lyrics accordingly, made her version the definitive one and a feminist anthem. (Plus she added the most distinctive part of the song, the "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" part.)

He jokes about it onstage in the Monterey Pop movie, saying a girl had taken his song away from him.