Maybe, Amanda was an obsessive Tiger Mom?
Requiem for Methuselah
- Thread starter Trekfan12
- Start date
Akarim the bully was his original name but now he is Flint or was before he died a being away from the natural fields of earth!
JB
JB
My understanding is the family was fond of bees. So perhaps a Queen Bee.
You need to watch the film again. Bob Balaban's character is brought in as a cartographer, and is pressed into service as Lacombe's interpreter because he's the only one there that speaks French.
As for Flint, I often wonder if he didn't adopt the roles of Brahms, etc., not by creating them whole cloth, but by taking over their lives when they met with unfortunate accidents. Or "accidents", if necessary. And as he has talents the originals did not, he becomes several different talented artists, who kickstarted the Renaissance with their contributions. Contributions that Flint, at that time, felt the world needed to attempt, at least, to grow out of the need for conquest. Remember, if we go by the timeline of Earth events, Flint bailed on the world about the same time as Cochrane invented a viable warp drive.
Looks like you're right; I found the scene online. But this knowledge ("Is the interpreter with you?" "I'm not a professional interpreter. My occupation is cartography. I'm a mapmaker.") is given to the audience immediately at the outset of the movie, before we know anything about the character; it's just a line placed there to allow him to recognize the coordinates later - an hour into the movie, when this detail of the opening scene is long forgotten. Not exactly lazy screenwriting, but it might as well be.
(Moreover, the first theater where I saw this, in Boston on premiere day (Friday 16 Dec 1977), had the sound cranked up high; not only did this increase the wind noise already present in the scene, the audience was all still recovering from the climactic orchestral blast with which the credits and opening music conclude.)
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Sounds possible at least. We don't know what really motivates Flint, and probably he had different motivations at different stages of his life, but early on it might have been a matter of survival. Unless he can take over another life, the villagers will pitchfork him into yet another annoying death - so "accidents" might be a necessary early modus operandi, with the aim of gathering either wealth and security or anonymity or both.
After a few lifetimes, Flint would probably learn to appreciate life, especially that of the other brief candles. But whether he would come to think of himself as the guardian of mankind at any point is unknown. For all we know, there were stages where he decided to gather enough power to smite his enemies, or even to terminate humanity once and for all, and others where he went all Gandhi but mainly out of a desire to stay away from causing further harm.
Would Flint have talent? He would have experience and skill, but would that ever allow him to get inspired?
The assorted "renaissances" of mankind could well be attributed to an immortal daring to be different because he had absolutely nothing to lose. But Flint would probably need to be a dozen artists simultaneously in order to start a revolution in art, and as said, that'd be difficult in ye olden days. Political revolutions, likewise. He could be advisor to a powerful ruler but not easily to two of them; leader of a mighty army but not of two simultaneously. Revolutions would probably still happen regardless of him, rather than due to him.
He'd need to be a dozen scientists simultaneously in order to start a revolution in science, too, but by the time he needed to have inspiring public debates with himself, the world would probably have grown up enough to spot one man playing both sides of the game, yet not enough to allow him to get away with it by hopping cities or continents... Perhaps his contribution to science never amounted to much, then, at most allowing him to be Tesla who was perhaps ahead of the game but alone, failing to get recognition and resources. Or perhaps he was, say, both Newton and Leibniz, drawing attention to calculus by staging a controversy - he'd just need to almost totally fabricate at least one of those lives in advance or afterwards.
Which might be because he always was disgusted by mankind, but had not managed to wipe it out despite his best efforts, so he took the next best option...
Timo Saloniemi
Flint, by his own admission, was enough Renaissance artists or various disciplines, painting, composing, etc., that he could possibly be seen as the inspiration for the greater mortal artists that followed. Mozart followed Brahms, for instance. That's enough to jumpstart the Renaissance right there.
Oops! You meant - Brahms followed Mozart, but moreso Brahms was inspired by Beethoven.
I wonder as an Immortal if Flint ever was discovered? Is so how often? And was there any way he could be killed? Fire? Electrocution?
This probably strikes at the heart of the issue. Sure, some artists may be claimed to "follow" a predecessor. But usually they follow a dozen, and nobody ever invents much radically new; certainly neither Mozart nor Brahms did. And certainly neither was involved in a "renaissance" of any sort.
Indeed, renaissances probably don't exist. At least the one that "ended the Middle Ages" is just a figment of certain Italian art historians' imagination, belying a gradual shift in the way art was done, physically done (new paints, new places to paint in and on, new economic possibities).
in any case, "renaissance" literally is supposed to mean a return to the past. And that happens a lot without the prompting of great innovators. Indeed, old stuff is constantly being reinvented (which is the opposite of inventing). I could definitely see Flint contributing there! "In my days, we worked the marble like this. None of this newfangled hurry, we had lifetimes for nothing but chipping away the stone. Oh, and Mike, how about giving an unnaturally big chest to the fellah - I remember him looking very impressive after he'd knocked me down and it was all frog perspective and sandals and dust, but the upper parts sorta suffered from that."
Timo Saloniemi
I was going to say, there can be only one. Maybe Flint won the Gathering.
Beheading? So that he could pass on his quickening maybe?
JB
He would care for the fembot if it turned out he himself was a robot. Maybe the entire episode takes place during "What Are Little Girls Made of?", between that time when the pseudo-Kirk is in command on the ship and the moment he tells Spock to buzz off.
Alternatively, Flint may have equipped her to produce pheromones, or perhaps the uniqueness of the gynoid was something Kirk sensed and responded to.
Human beings are not as rational as we like to believe. We don't always react the same in similar circumstances. Just when you think you've found the perfect D-wad, he'll turn around and do something nice. And Kirk's attitude toward women had a lot to do with being the ultimate authority on board. Remove him from the Enterprise and some of his true feelings may surface.
I was also so hopeful for the first 75% of this episode... and then ending was such a major disappointment. The episode did not have to end this way. There was another plot device, aside from Rayna. Flint's aging. Remember when McCoy noted how Flint "leaving Earth with all of its complex fields within which he was formed, sacrificed immortality." I have a problem with this statement in of itself, because how long was Flint away from Earth? A couple of centuries? There's nothing "special" about Earth that endows any living thing with immortality. And if it had something to do with magnetic fields or radiation levels, Flint could have easily figured that out and simulated it to sustain him. But let's say, Mr. Flint genius didn't think of this. And after a couple centuries his immortal regeneration was beginning to break down.
So, in the end, it's revealed Rayna is an android. And now she knows it. (Which in of itself was silly... because as a child, we make mistakes, get injured... spill blood. Certainly she would have done that and discovered she had no blood. Unless Flint's replication was so thorough, she has a simulated circulatory system used as a kind of thermal regulation). And then Kirk tries to seduce her into "coming" with him? Leaving Flint for the Enterprise and... life without anyone she knows? Preposterous. Now, we know Kirk is a bit of a womanizer. But he's also a romantic. And yes, Rayna being what she was would be difficult to resist. Maybe Kirk couldn't help himself and really wanted to indulge her. Perhaps further her emotions, win her adoration? Or... maybe he was jealous of Flint and this was a way to get back at him. Like "OK, you've got the power to take my ship out of orbit and shrink it to 2 feet long, but your android creation loves me not you!"
I think it could have unfolded where Rayna makes her demands, "I choose!" and then Kirk supports that. She sizes up both men. And she tells Flint that he's her "father"... that is how they've bonded, and she could never consider him a lover. He's devastated. And Kirk? She admits she's very much attracted to him, but she also sees Kirk's narrow biological concerns. Her mind is greater than that and wants the freedom to explore the universe, unencumbered by relationships. And in the end, both men are rejected. Flint almost collapses in emotional shock. McCoy comes to his aid... and then he discovers the aging issue. That Flint is dying. So... after all, Rayna would outlive him. Rayna decides to stay with Flint and learn to build her own vessel to travel the stars. And Flint will help her... while he lives.
The away team returns back to the ship with the cure. Then we have that last scene, where Kirk is exasperated... resting his head on his desk, wishing he could forget Rayna. Was she that profound to have effected him so? It wasn't like the Dohlman of Elas where her tears affected him. Or Miramanee, where he lived with her for a couple of months and she became pregnant with his child -- seemed like that would have far greater weight. Hard to buy it, especially given how short a time he had with Rayna. It would've been more believable if he'd spent a few nights... had sexual relations.
Nah, I've tried to "fan adjust" the scenario... just feels like the episode has a major shortcoming and not much to do about it.
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'Renaissance' actually means rebirth or revival. It represents a return to refined artistic, philosophical, and architectural trends not seen since the fall of the Roman Empire. Literacy all but vanished, as the art building cities and making concrete. The Gothic period sought to return to architectural greatness, and in many ways it did. But it represents a major learning curve in which the mathematics of structural integrity were ironed out by building up until structures collapsed. That's why the Notre Dame has buttresses.
But the Renaissance is a return to the greatness of ancient Rome. What ancient Romans chanced upon during conquest, renaissance Romans had spent centuries learning to do the hard way. It was a golden age of achievement, not unlike the 20th century. But it wasn't new. It was a rediscovery.
Let's keep perspective here... There is the literal "Renaissance Period", but then there's the use of the word in general. And the first use was concerning rebirth, renewal. But the meaning evolved in modern times.
A "renaissance" is a movement or period of vigorous artistic and intellectual activity. And sometimes a person might be called a "renaissance man" (or woman) as someone who endeavors in vigorous and intellectual activity. The official dictionary said "vigorous" but I think that's narrow. It's not just vigorous but also widespread. At least the social use of "renaissance" is often applied to someone who has their "fingers" in many different intellectual and artistic pursuits. Just as the "rebirth renaissance" meant there was vigorous development and progress all across the various arts and sciences.
A "renaissance" is a movement or period of vigorous artistic and intellectual activity. And sometimes a person might be called a "renaissance man" (or woman) as someone who endeavors in vigorous and intellectual activity. The official dictionary said "vigorous" but I think that's narrow. It's not just vigorous but also widespread. At least the social use of "renaissance" is often applied to someone who has their "fingers" in many different intellectual and artistic pursuits. Just as the "rebirth renaissance" meant there was vigorous development and progress all across the various arts and sciences.
...In essence, a few Italian cities dug up old Roman stuff and put it on display, and then spun a tale of this kickstarting a new (that is, old) era in art, ignoring the fact that art outside Italy (and often in neighboring cities on the Apennines, too) had long ago outpaced the Romans, or at least reached the same heights independently and without crutches.
Basically, very little of what transpired involved going back to the Antiquity for real. Line perspective and oil painting were all-new phenomena. Literature largely described a world unrecognizable to the Romans or the Greek, in ways they had never attempted to exploit, and serving goals they would not have agreed with. That some of this happened at the time those headless statues were being unearthed was pretty much a coincidence, and certainly those statues were quite unrelated to the emergence of "renaissance men" or the circumstances that allowed them to do art rather than die of hunger.
Could Flint have been a Medici or a Dandolo, a facilitator? Gathering of wealth was certainly one of his fortes, and renaissance was all about wealth. Yet it was also about the lessening of threat and improving of communications, and being a mighty warrior or two could have allowed Flint to help out there, too. Yet would he plan ahead with such things in his mind? Why would he single out the future Italy for his exploits when he himself was supposedly of more eastern origin, from a world that at the time was far more civilized and showing more promise?
In the end, renaissance men were exploiters more than providers. And Flint would have been good at exploiting. Nowhere do we get the impression that he would have mankind's best interests really at heart. Why, he left the whole bunch behind as soon as he could!
Timo Saloniemi
Basically, very little of what transpired involved going back to the Antiquity for real. Line perspective and oil painting were all-new phenomena. Literature largely described a world unrecognizable to the Romans or the Greek, in ways they had never attempted to exploit, and serving goals they would not have agreed with. That some of this happened at the time those headless statues were being unearthed was pretty much a coincidence, and certainly those statues were quite unrelated to the emergence of "renaissance men" or the circumstances that allowed them to do art rather than die of hunger.
Could Flint have been a Medici or a Dandolo, a facilitator? Gathering of wealth was certainly one of his fortes, and renaissance was all about wealth. Yet it was also about the lessening of threat and improving of communications, and being a mighty warrior or two could have allowed Flint to help out there, too. Yet would he plan ahead with such things in his mind? Why would he single out the future Italy for his exploits when he himself was supposedly of more eastern origin, from a world that at the time was far more civilized and showing more promise?
In the end, renaissance men were exploiters more than providers. And Flint would have been good at exploiting. Nowhere do we get the impression that he would have mankind's best interests really at heart. Why, he left the whole bunch behind as soon as he could!
Timo Saloniemi
Only if she knew this was what would happen. She grew up alone with just Flint. She'd never seen anyone else in her life. Never saw any other person fall down and skin their knee or injure themselves to the point of drawing blood. She would have no reason to expect something like that to happen to her. Unless, of course, she saw Flint fall, cut himself or injure himself in some way to draw blood.
She could also have been programmed to ignore any such aberrations the same way Data's mother was programmed to forget any injury which revealed she was an android.
I have always thought Kirk's behavior in this episode is the result of Flint manipulating him in some way. Flint was Solomon, Leonardo etc. He had the power to either miniaturize and transport a starship from orbit to his desktop or, what I think makes more sense, make his guests think he'd done it. And if he can make Kirk believe his ship is now 33" long, he can make him fall in love.
It was obviously beyond his power to turn the love charm off once he got it started, however.
As for the handwritten manuscript, I expect a man who had lived for 6000 years would have many odd idiosyncrasies. Writing music by hand does not seem so crazy in that light.
It was obviously beyond his power to turn the love charm off once he got it started, however.
As for the handwritten manuscript, I expect a man who had lived for 6000 years would have many odd idiosyncrasies. Writing music by hand does not seem so crazy in that light.
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