That clone was already alive.
The others were not yet viable--so far as we can tell.
Pulaski and Riker clone killing ethical?
- Thread starter marsh8472
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That clone was already alive.
The others were not yet viable--so far as we can tell.
Exactly. A fetus is alive even before it is born; these clones are not alive until they "wake up".
Okay, let's take it one at a time.
They're Humans, their cells came from Humans.
They're clones, repeated reference are made to this.
They're alive (as opposed to being deceased), they were grown using living cell and when they finished growing they would be a living being who came from those living cells. The cells that compose them, right from the start are alive.
I'm using alive to mean living. May I ask, do you consider unconscious people (or even animals) to be "alive?"
Based on what? They were cloned (a word that has a actual meaning) biological organisms. They were grown from a small number of cells, living cells.
The Mariposan were making clones, of clones, of clones. That was their problem, they could only do this a certain number of times (about 15 generations) before there were too many genetic error over the course of multiple generation.
They were making new people from the cells of the current generation.
Now if the Mariposans were just using the genetic information, and not growing the actual cells, then the original information from the first colonists could have been used fresh each time, instead of making a successive clone of a existing clone.
When the faces of nuRiker and nuPulaski are shown, there is skin, bone structure and obvious eyes in the eye sockets. The people are not just organic blobs in a growth chamber.
I think (ymmv) that the Mariposan have a method that accelerates the rate that the actual cells reproduce and grow, the cellular structure is continuously alive right from the start.
Like I said, the cells were alive, but the clones themselves were not. A clone only becomes alive when it fully matures and wakes up.
A baby's heart starts beating 18 days after conception, immediately prior to this the heart does exist without beating.
If the clones were to (for example) be fully mature adults in a single day, given that accelerate rate their heart would have begun beating after the first few minutes.
So they are just inanimate tissue until the very moment they wake up?
None of their organs were just a moment before working, their blood wasn't circulating, carrying oxygen, their cell hadn't been metabolizing nutrients and generating wastes?
Their brain were not actively regulating their bodies, they haven't been experiencing REM sleep and dreams for the previous hours?
It's not that I'm deliberately trying to piss you off, I honestly don't understand how you're using the term "alive."
We could go the other way like asking at what point did Kes die or is no longer considered an organism named Kes while aging backward in episode "Before and After"
Maybe it's not one or the other. It would work like a continuum like this based on the 8 frames above
1) 0.000000001% of a being
2) 0.000000002% of a being
3) 0.000000004% of a being
4) 0.000000008% of a being
5) 0.000000016% of a being
6) 1% of a being
7) 60% of a being
8) 99.9% of a being
Then somewhere in there they artificially determine where to call it murder and immoral to terminate it.
Maybe it's not one or the other. It would work like a continuum like this based on the 8 frames above
1) 0.000000001% of a being
2) 0.000000002% of a being
3) 0.000000004% of a being
4) 0.000000008% of a being
5) 0.000000016% of a being
6) 1% of a being
7) 60% of a being
8) 99.9% of a being
Then somewhere in there they artificially determine where to call it murder and immoral to terminate it.
Their tissue is alive, but the clones themselves are not living, sentient beings until they wake.
All true, yes. But see above.
They are not alive (As in the opposite of living organism, like a cloned organ isn't a live organism) The cells they are amassing are alive. The organism they are amassing with those cells is not alive until it is amassed. A collection of living cells does not necessarily an organism make.
Yes, they were not. They were incompletely forming, in a maturation chamber. There were no biological functions happening yet, because how could they possibly, if the biological material needed to allow for those organs & systems to function hadn't completed formation? The logical assumption is that once all the biological systems are fully formed, then you can use them for biological function, like brain waves, heart pumping, vascular circulation, etc.... Without that, no human life can be happening
but you're baselessly assuming that even if that's true, it means the organism is also alive, in defiance of both the physiological factors I outlined above, AND the fact that neither Riker nor Pulaski seem to recognize either of them as being living humans at all, as well
That they look almost complete. Doesn't mean they are. In fact, in my OP I posted a picture where they don't look very complete at all. They look like human shaped, peach jello molds
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Here's what the original script says
Riker and Pulaski's anger and the fact that these are their clones brings into question how reliable their judgement is on the moral implications of what they are doing. The clones are referred to as "half-formed clones". A half-formed infant would be about midway through the second trimester.
They also say they accelerate growth to avoid having to deal with childhood while imprinting knowledge chemically into the brain. I wonder how far along the brain development was, if that part develops more quickly than the rest of the body.
Mariposans justify stealing the DNA out of desperation and having a right to survive. In a way at a cellular level we do that too while we kill other lifeforms and ingest them our digestive system converts that material into more cells through mitosis or individual cellular cloning processes.
RIKER: It's not a question of harm. One William Riker is unique, perhaps even special. But a hundred of him, a thousand of him diminishes me in ways I can't even imagine.
GRANGER: You would be preserving yourself.
RIKER: Human beings have other ways of doing that. We have children.
Couldn't they have just asked for sperm/egg donations then?
Riker and Pulaski's anger and the fact that these are their clones brings into question how reliable their judgement is on the moral implications of what they are doing. The clones are referred to as "half-formed clones". A half-formed infant would be about midway through the second trimester.
They also say they accelerate growth to avoid having to deal with childhood while imprinting knowledge chemically into the brain. I wonder how far along the brain development was, if that part develops more quickly than the rest of the body.
Mariposans justify stealing the DNA out of desperation and having a right to survive. In a way at a cellular level we do that too while we kill other lifeforms and ingest them our digestive system converts that material into more cells through mitosis or individual cellular cloning processes.
RIKER: It's not a question of harm. One William Riker is unique, perhaps even special. But a hundred of him, a thousand of him diminishes me in ways I can't even imagine.
GRANGER: You would be preserving yourself.
RIKER: Human beings have other ways of doing that. We have children.
Couldn't they have just asked for sperm/egg donations then?
This whole thing could have been avoided if the Mariposans had just waited until the Enterprise left.
It's not at all a question of ethics, it's just bad writing.
It's not at all a question of ethics, it's just bad writing.
Or asked the Federation, or any other galatic union, to send genetic specialists to study their genetic code and at the very least, stabilise the process of cloning their own people.
Or sent an open invitation to the galaxy to donate genetic material and be upfront about exactly what it would be used for.
You know, a lot of other things that didn't involve violation of unsuspecting innocent individuals.
A half grown infant maybe, but that would make it a fetus, which is already alive. A half formed adult clone, is only half made. What they imprint on the cells while they're developing is beside the point, and that would likely have to be a final stage of brain building
but clearly, if it's still half formed & looks like an incomplete human body, then whatever that acceleration process is, it's done before it comes on line as viable
It doesn't matter, if the other systems aren't functioning, & it itself is still being formed, it can't be a functioning brain. At least it's fair to assume Riker & Pulaski don't think so
Because things that are personal & cause them anger have been historically known to make them violent enough to murder? I've never seen that on the show. My suspension of disbelief allows me to interpret their action as being consistent with how they behave otherwise. Even under duress, angered & personally effected, these people don't mindlessly execute living beings. Will Riker has since found a living clone out there folks, named Tom Riker, one that bothered him quite a bit, & he ain't murdered it yet.
This whole thing is a tempest in a teapot, that in order to claim malfeasance, one has to create their own narrative of what's being shown, instead of just considering the obvious reality. A half-formed human clone is not a human clone. It's a collection of clone parts that they destroyed, against the Mariposan government's wishes. We don't even know that when Granger yelled "Murders", he was referring to the clones. He may have been referring to his people "We have a right to survive" This 2nd remark suggests that by destroying the clones, from his perspective, they're actively extinguishing all the Mariposans, & that's maybe why he refers to them as murderers
The prime minister did call them murders. He surely knows something about the cloning process too. Why would he call them murders?
Here's how Riker weighs unproven beliefs vs facts in episode "Quality of Life"
FARALLON: Commander, maybe the exocomps can help us. I can programme their boridium power cells to explode on command. They can be configured just like a photon torpedo, but it would only take a couple of minutes.
DATA: Commander. I must object to that plan.
RIKER: Data, we've been through this. We tested the exocomp and it failed.
DATA: Doctor Crusher and I discovered that the exocomp did not fail the test. It is still my belief we are dealing with a new life form.
RIKER: Mister Data, you know how much I respect your judgment, but I can't risk the Captain and Geordi on the basis of your belief. Prepare the exocomp, Doctor.
DATA: Commander, if I am correct, the exocomps will not allow themselves to be destroyed. They have a sense of survival, and they will shut down before they will comply with the order.
FARALLON: I could disconnect their command pathways before I programme them.
RIKER: Do it.
...
KELSO: I'm sorry, sir. The transporter system just went dead. There's some kind of malfunction.
[Bridge]
RIKER: Run a diagnostic immediately. Try bypassing the
DATA: Commander, that will not be necessary. The transporter is not malfunctioning. I have locked out the controls.
[Observation lounge]
RIKER: I gave you a direct order, Mister Data. You release that transporter lockout now.
DATA: I cannot do that, sir.
RIKER: If you don't do it, I will relieve you of duty.
DATA: That is your prerogative, sir. Under Starfleet regulations, direct insubordination is a court martial offence. But I will not release the transporter.
RIKER: Data, those are two of your friends out there. They have saved your life more times than I can remember. I can't believe you'd be willing to sacrifice them like this.
DATA: Commander, please do not think this is an arbitrary decision. I have considered the ramifications of my actions carefully, and I do not believe it is justifiable to sacrifice one life form for another.
RIKER: You don't know that the exocomps are life forms.
DATA: It is true I am acting on my personal beliefs, but I do not see how I can do otherwise.
RIKER: You're risking a lot on the basis of a belief.
DATA: I have observed that humans often base their judgments on what is referred to as instinct or intuition. Because I am a machine, I lack that particular ability. However it may be possible that I have insight into other machines that humans lack.
RIKER: If there were a way to save the Captain and Geordi without destroying the exocomps, I would jump on it, but we have run out of time and this is the only solution I've got.
DATA: Then let me offer an alternative. Transport me to the station, I will attempt a complete manual shut down of the particle stream.
RIKER: The radiation levels are too high, even for you. Your positronic net would ionise in no time. I can't let you sacrifice yourself.
DATA: Commander, if I give my life to save my fellow officers, that is my choice. The exocomps no longer have a choice.
RIKER: Then what if we re-connect their command pathways and we give them a choice? You've assumed the exocomps would shut down before accepting this mission. What if we ask them if they are willing to proceed.
DATA: That sounds reasonable, sir. If they choose to go, I would be willing to release the transporter lock out.
RIKER: Fair enough.
Based on what happened there, is it not reasonable to say that Riker could have rationalized it the same way here? He did not know whether the clones were considered sentient beings or not and to state that they were sentient beings would be considered an unproven belief to him. That versus the certainty that if the clone was not terminated there would have been copies created of him everywhere on the planet. Killing something that could be sentient vs having countless copies created of him everywhere.
If this is considered ethical rationalization then it could have been ethical to kill them while the clones could have been sentient and alive at that time anyway. Just like Riker could have been rational to order to exocoms to kill themselves since he did not know for sure whether they were alive.
The two clones were external to the originals--so it isn't like there is a threat to their well being.
They were fetus like--even though large (clones won't ever be like that--only being delayed twins)
The clones could have been even more plain tissue than an indepentently growing fetus--perhaps awaiting a download from an aging personality. You can look at this from any number of ways.
They were fetus like--even though large (clones won't ever be like that--only being delayed twins)
The clones could have been even more plain tissue than an indepentently growing fetus--perhaps awaiting a download from an aging personality. You can look at this from any number of ways.
Because he's pissed off, and not necessarily thinking straight.
One of the regularly debated topics from TNG. I'm still of the opinion that if it's being formed, cell by cell, directly into a fully adult human clone, (Pictured below) before it's a functional person (Unlike the more realistic embryonic type of cloning) then there is no way its organ function would possibly be capable of sustaining life during whatever that process would be. So, It's not a living being yet. Look at the picture. It looks like a jello molded glob. Human physiology would not be possible under those developmental conditions. It's a pile of lifeless, human shaped, biological matter. Therefore, not murder, not unethical, not even really all that disturbing
How does the development of that clone compare to development of this embryo
As are you (and others) when it comes to you interpretation.
That is my contention. Starting with a few cell, the clone progressed within the chamber through the stages of fetus, baby, child, early teen until the stage we first see them.
They didn't start step one being full grown, there were intermediate steps.
The major difference is the clone is much further along in development when we first see them, advanced to at least late teens or early adulthood.
I don't think that would have mattered to Riker, he killed the people in the growth chambers owing to his personal philosophy. Pulaski (if you recall) was visually less confident in her decision.
We don't KNOW how they compare, because we don't know what the conditions are in the clone except that it's half-formed, & likely not able to function the organs within it, because it can't possibly be developing the same as an embryo. There's even those that argue the living status of 8-9 week embryos. However Pulaski & Riker would know, and they give no indication that it's even worth considering, which would be highly out of character for them & what we know of them, but some folks want to ignore that, and bypass reason, to tear them down, as if they are murderers, because one biased guy, in one poorly written episode called them that, & some people take very personally the issue of abortion
He didn't. He called Riker & Pulaski "Murderers" which doesn't ever have to mean the specific act of destroying the clones. It could mean the act of denying the Mariposan people the clones & the genes therein, which hastens their extinction. It could be a collective "You're murderers of us", because they're admittedly a dying people without it
No, I'm basing my interpretation on the episode's presentation & the characters in the series. You're ignoring those factors, and writing your own narrative, in order to make your interpretation
You're assuming all of that, it's your own narrative not supported by the episode. We know none of that to be true
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Your wrong, they repeatedly refer to what is happening as "cloning." This is a word that has a defined meaning. What I am describing is cloning, starting with a existing sample, and growing this into a new organism.
You seem to be describing having a body form 99.9% out of I don't know what, and then somehow "switching it on."
How is this cloning?
Which again is a term they repeatedly use and has a actual biological meaning.
If anyone is creating a narrative out of completely thin air it is yourself.
You seem to be describing having a body form 99.9% out of I don't know what, and then somehow "switching it on."
How is this cloning?
Which again is a term they repeatedly use and has a actual biological meaning.
If anyone is creating a narrative out of completely thin air it is yourself.
Here's the clone in DS9 episode "A Man Alone" at about the same level of development as far as appearance is concerned.
This is what Bashir says about it
BASHIR: if you know to look for it. We've matched the victim's gene-sequence with the fellow in the jar here. They're definitely both clones.
ODO: What happens to this one?
BASHIR: In about two days, he becomes a living, breathing member of Bajoran society.
ODO: Let's hope he doesn't follow in his donor's footsteps.
(does this imply that the clone is not a living being now? Does calling the clone "he" instead of "it" imply that the clone is already a living organism?)
Then shortly later in that episode
Commander's log, stardate 46421.5. Ibudan has been turned over to the Bajoran authorities just hours after his clone gained consciousness and began a new life.