How Many TOS Constitution Class Ships *Can* There Be?
- Thread starter Emperor Norton
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Aircraft can detect and launch weapons against submarines.
To be clear: Helicopters and some specialized fixed-wing aircraft can detect and launch weapons against submarines. The former requires the presence of an aircraft carrier that is otherwise vulnerable in the absence of escort ships and are also not quite as reliable in ASW warfare as most navies would like. The latter is known to be the easier to avoid.
See, this is really one for three in that regard: most of the time it visits important planets as in an ambassadorial role and they go out of their way to emphasize the peaceful nature of their mission. Demonstration of power is actually something they try to AVOID doing because it usually just pisses people off (e.g. the First Federation, Cestus-III, etc) and half the time those pissed-off aliens are a lot more powerful than the Federation. That's something that needs to be remembered here: nations don't engage in power projection in places where they aren't actually the most powerful force in the region, since that invites the kind of pissing match they are likely to loose. The Federation ISN'T the top dog in most of the uncharted regions they explore, so they have to walk a lot softer as they go.
Which again begs the question: how do we know any of those ships were capital ships? You can make the case for the Galaxy class which is described as the "flagship" and even, to a lesser extent, the Sovereign class. And yet the Sovereign is 40% smaller than the Galaxy class that preceded it, so that already breaks the assumption that capital ships are ALWAYS bigger than their predecessors. The ship Ambassador replaced could have been (and, going by the Kelvinverse, probably WAS) slightly larger in absolute terms and wound up being replaced mainly because new technologies allowed them to fit the same capabilities into a more efficient design.
Arguably, the Galaxy class is only as large as it is because the ship is meant to be fully operable while separated, like two complete starships in one. The Sovereign class, as far as we know, doesn't separate at all, and does the same things the Galaxy class can do, just more efficiently and with a smaller hull.
And until we have any indication that either of them would be considered "capital ships," this doesn't really mean anything.
Historically, most navies didn't use their battleships to power project in the sense of sending them to patrol the seas or visit another nation. They sent cruisers to do that sort of job most of the time. The battleships were too expensive and were usually held near home for defense. Everyone once in a while a nation would send a battleship out to show the flag or go to a naval review of another country, or in the United States time, send almost the entire battleship fleet on a world cruise (The Great White Fleet) to not only show the flag, but also demonstrate to the recently victorious Japanese that there is a bigger fish in the Pacific. But most of the time it is a cruiser that goes to show the flag (USS Maine, the one that went to Cuba, was actually an armored cruiser).
Helicopters that take off from land can detect and launch weapons against submarines. No destroyer (or carrier) required.
The British described the armored cruiser Admiral Graf Spee as a "pocket battleship," however the Germans never did.
Her two sister ships were reclassified as heavy cruisers in 1940 (but not "pocket battleships.")
Point being it doesn't make any difference what the Klingons called the Enterprise refit.
The Klingons probably call the Enterprise a battle cruiser because they don't want to admit that they got their asses handed to them by a peaceful ship of exploration.
The D7 is also called a battle cruiser and is common in the Klingon fleet.
Battle cruisers in history are either a cruiser with battleship guns, or fast battleships with cruiser guns. All versions are considered fast. Since Starfleet phasers and torpedoes seem to be able to be fit on anything any starship could be called a battlecruiser or battledestroyer because they all have battleship guns because almost everything has those guns.
"These characteristics define a capital ship: if the capital ships are beaten, the navy is beaten. But if the rest of the navy is beaten, the capital ships can still operate. Another characteristic that defines capital ships is that their main opponent is each other." ~America Can Win
This definition makes thing kind of blurry for Starships. Almost to the point of pointlessness.
That does not make everything a capital ship, because if we go by those terms every ship in Starfleet is a capital ships as long as it has both phasers and photon torpedoes. At which point the term "capital ship" loses its meaning.
So, no, the Constitution-class are not battlecruisers. A Galaxy-class starship possibly is a capital ship based on it being nearly a town in space, how it is used in war and how that Enterprise is considered the "Flagship of the Federation". Kirk's ship is used like a cruiser or an age of sail frigate. Ships of line didn't go on long term missions, that was a frigate's job.
The NX-01 was also not a capital ship traditionally, however it to Earth is could be classified as such as it was likely the largest ships they had at the time. But even a country like Argentina will not classify a cruiser as a battleship when it is their largest ship while other countries have real battleships.. The United States classified the USS Maine and the early USS Texas as battleships for a time in the press, but USS Maine was an armored cruiser and USS Texas was a second rate coastal defense battleship. The following USS Indiana (BB-1) was a battleship, but also mostly a coastal defense verse with the early USS Iowa (BB-4) being the first battleship worthy of going on deep sea trips. All of those as well as the entire Great White Fleet was actually obsolete when it made its trip around the world. USS South Carolina (BB-26) was under construction during that voyage. It was the American's first Dreadnought, with the HMS Dreadnought having been completed before the Great White Fleet even sailed.
Battle cruisers in history are either a cruiser with battleship guns, or fast battleships with cruiser guns. All versions are considered fast. Since Starfleet phasers and torpedoes seem to be able to be fit on anything any starship could be called a battlecruiser or battledestroyer because they all have battleship guns because almost everything has those guns.
"These characteristics define a capital ship: if the capital ships are beaten, the navy is beaten. But if the rest of the navy is beaten, the capital ships can still operate. Another characteristic that defines capital ships is that their main opponent is each other." ~America Can Win
This definition makes thing kind of blurry for Starships. Almost to the point of pointlessness.
That does not make everything a capital ship, because if we go by those terms every ship in Starfleet is a capital ships as long as it has both phasers and photon torpedoes. At which point the term "capital ship" loses its meaning.
So, no, the Constitution-class are not battlecruisers. A Galaxy-class starship possibly is a capital ship based on it being nearly a town in space, how it is used in war and how that Enterprise is considered the "Flagship of the Federation". Kirk's ship is used like a cruiser or an age of sail frigate. Ships of line didn't go on long term missions, that was a frigate's job.
The NX-01 was also not a capital ship traditionally, however it to Earth is could be classified as such as it was likely the largest ships they had at the time. But even a country like Argentina will not classify a cruiser as a battleship when it is their largest ship while other countries have real battleships.. The United States classified the USS Maine and the early USS Texas as battleships for a time in the press, but USS Maine was an armored cruiser and USS Texas was a second rate coastal defense battleship. The following USS Indiana (BB-1) was a battleship, but also mostly a coastal defense verse with the early USS Iowa (BB-4) being the first battleship worthy of going on deep sea trips. All of those as well as the entire Great White Fleet was actually obsolete when it made its trip around the world. USS South Carolina (BB-26) was under construction during that voyage. It was the American's first Dreadnought, with the HMS Dreadnought having been completed before the Great White Fleet even sailed.
"So, no, the Constitution-class are not battlecruisers."
This is clearly and already demonstrated to be a direct contradiction of on screen canon. If you don't feel they should be considered a battlecruier that's fine but the writers of the franchise clearly and demonstratably disagree as per the quoted material where they are expressly called battlecruisers, which are literally defined as capital ships by treaty.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Naval_Treaty
"The qualitative limits of each type of ship were as follows:
This is clearly and already demonstrated to be a direct contradiction of on screen canon. If you don't feel they should be considered a battlecruier that's fine but the writers of the franchise clearly and demonstratably disagree as per the quoted material where they are expressly called battlecruisers, which are literally defined as capital ships by treaty.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Naval_Treaty
"The qualitative limits of each type of ship were as follows:
- Capital ships (battleships and battlecruisers) were limited to 35,000 tons standard displacement and guns of no larger than 16-inch calibre. (Articles V and VI)"
Klingons used D7/K't'inga class battle cruisers as their main capital ships. The Constitution class was the Starfleet equivalent of the D7/K't'inga class, thus it's been called a battlecruiser by the Klingons even if it is classified as a heavy cruiser in Starfleet.
By the way, meet the Battleship Averof, a historic ship of the Greek Navy. It is called a battleship in Greek but it's actual classification is that of a (pre-dreadnought) armored cruiser. Nevertheless it was one of Greece's capital ships (and in fact the flagship of the fleet) and served with distinction in two Balkan Wars and two World Wars.
By the way, meet the Battleship Averof, a historic ship of the Greek Navy. It is called a battleship in Greek but it's actual classification is that of a (pre-dreadnought) armored cruiser. Nevertheless it was one of Greece's capital ships (and in fact the flagship of the fleet) and served with distinction in two Balkan Wars and two World Wars.
We still know little of the Klingon space navy in canon. I suspect that they would refer to the Connie as a battlecruiser as they could literally have no concept of anything else. They may not have the subtle distinctions of heavy, light, or exploration cruisers, so to them any cruiser is a battlecruiser.
Saying that we see nothing on-screen in the Klingon Navy bigger or badder than a Connie until the Vor'cha in TNG. At the time of TOS the Connies and D7s are probably the biggest main frontline starships, not discounting the possibility of maybe the occasional heavier ship designed for war as fleet flagships like the Franz Joseph Dreadnought or Klingon C8/C9, though bear in mind that in TUC the personal warship of the Chancellor is still only a D7.
The Klingons don't call it a battlecruiser. The 20th century translation into english of what the Klingons call it is "Battlecruiser" - meaning it is our equivalent of a batlecruiser - a heavily armed capital ship that sacrifices some armour for superior speed, which fits in pretty well with the missions the Enterprise embarks on in the series and films.
The Constitution-class likely weight more that 35,000 tons and phasers and photon torpedoes are not equivalent to any form of projectile based naval guns, so the diameter limit of said weapon is worthless for the purpose of defining a Starship. Most starships classes in Starfleet are likely more that 35,000 tones, Even USS Grissom is heavier than that in the old FASA version.
Battlecruiser is the 20th century translated equivalent of what the Klingons military classifies it as. That's canon. It's on screen. Referencing the Enterpise specifically. 20th century Battlecruiser? Capital ship, acknowledged as such in international treaties.
Saying "It's not a naval vessel firing long guns on the ocean so it's not a Battlecruiser" is ignoring context and literal on screen statements.
Saying "It's not a naval vessel firing long guns on the ocean so it's not a Battlecruiser" is ignoring context and literal on screen statements.
And what the Klingons claim has nothing to do with Starfleet and how it defines things. By the actual definition of a capital ship, every single starship in the Federation and Klingon Empire are capital ships. Every. Single. One.
And that defeats the entire purpose of the term.
And that defeats the entire purpose of the term.
Says who? Where? Nobody is saying all ships are capital ships. Miranda aren’t capital ships. Birds of Prey aren't capital ships. There is nothing on screen saying they are.
I posted on screen canon. On screen canon says that the Klingons, who are in a cold war with the Federation, consider Constellations what we in the 20th century would call a Battlecruiser - a capital ship.
Off screen, there are tons of theories that the Enterprise-A's quick decommissioning in favour of the upcoming Excelsior class E-B was partially due to the Star Trek equivalent of these 20th century treaties limiting the number of capital ships per side - which also explains the growing number of Birds of Prey the Federation encounters vs. their capital ships. That's debatable, sure, since it's not on screen, but does follow logic and the discussion of demilitarization among the Klingon neutral zone referenced at the start of TUC.
You said there was no evidence of the Klingon or Romulan opinion of Constellation star ships. I gave you an on screen opinion by the Klingon Empire on Constellation starships. You said there is nothing on screen calling the Constellations battlecruisers or battleships. I showed you a quote saying so. You said that battlecruisers aren't capital ships. I linked you to international treatise defining battlecruisers as capital ships.
If you don't like the idea and reject it in your personal head canon, fine. Nothing wrong with that. But that's what's on screen.
Edit: and since I don't think I said it yet, Have a Merry Christmas if you celebrate it! Hope everyone here had a wonderful day and that Santa was super generous to you and your families!
I posted on screen canon. On screen canon says that the Klingons, who are in a cold war with the Federation, consider Constellations what we in the 20th century would call a Battlecruiser - a capital ship.
Off screen, there are tons of theories that the Enterprise-A's quick decommissioning in favour of the upcoming Excelsior class E-B was partially due to the Star Trek equivalent of these 20th century treaties limiting the number of capital ships per side - which also explains the growing number of Birds of Prey the Federation encounters vs. their capital ships. That's debatable, sure, since it's not on screen, but does follow logic and the discussion of demilitarization among the Klingon neutral zone referenced at the start of TUC.
You said there was no evidence of the Klingon or Romulan opinion of Constellation star ships. I gave you an on screen opinion by the Klingon Empire on Constellation starships. You said there is nothing on screen calling the Constellations battlecruisers or battleships. I showed you a quote saying so. You said that battlecruisers aren't capital ships. I linked you to international treatise defining battlecruisers as capital ships.
If you don't like the idea and reject it in your personal head canon, fine. Nothing wrong with that. But that's what's on screen.
Edit: and since I don't think I said it yet, Have a Merry Christmas if you celebrate it! Hope everyone here had a wonderful day and that Santa was super generous to you and your families!
On screen evidence the refit Enterprise was a heavy cruiser: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=40646&fullsize=1 Enterprise schematic from Star Trek III when McCoy entered Spock's quarters.
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