Worf & Dax, Worf & Troi...(Risa Episode)

[Thomas Elliot]

So I'm watching ST: DS9 s05ep07 "Let He Who is Without Sin."

Worf is a little upset that Jadzia is telling all her friends things about their relationship that he feels are private. She's pretty much telling him to chill out, it's not a big deal. Then he tells her it's not appropriate for her to be out dining with one of her former lovers. Again, she's like "it's not a big deal, you should trust me."

They go to a pleasure planet to vacation, where free love/promiscuous sex appears to be the norm. Then Jadzia runs into one of Kurzon's former lovers, and she seems a little into Jadzia. Worf doesn't like it, and again, Jadzia dismisses his feelings.

I really disliked Jadzia in this episode. I agree that Worf should trust her, however, if he feels it's disrespectful then she should be considerate of his feelings. And infidelity can happen to the best of us. Why put yourself in that kind of situation, and more so, if it brings your significant other pain?

But of course Worf is portrayed as the old-fashioned, backwards man, who is wrong once again. The planet Risa reminded me a lot of the future portrayed in Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World." Even Bashir and his girlfriend act like the inhabitants of that world, who end a relationship without tears, without sadness, all while starting other brief relationships before they completely end their own.

I feel that Deanna Troi was a better fit for Worf, and although I think she would have given Worf some similar challenges, I think their would have been better compromises on both sides. I thought the "Parellels" episoide of TNG was a successful example of Troi and Worf being together.

Any thoughts on this episode or the relationships?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I think the episodes has too many problems to be used as a lens on the Jadzia-Worf relationship. LHWIWS tries to accomplish too many things, and as a consequences, warps the personalities of the characters. Remove it, and the progression of the episode is more natural, where the two people work out the differences of the personalities and the cultures. In the end, I think that their relationship was more interesting than Deana-Worf, which was itself more interesting than Deana-Riker.

 

[Tosk]

I agree that Worf should trust her, however, if he feels it's disrespectful then she should be considerate of his feelings.

She should not spend time with people because Worf feels funny about it? Screw that noise.

 

[Nyotarules]

I must be one of the few that liked the Troi-Worf relationship, some fans complain they had no chemistry but I know couples with chemistry all the way to the divorce court so screw external 'chemistry' .
As for the episode there was blame on both sides. Jadzia should ask Worf where these concerns of his were coming from plus as a Trill re-association on a romantic front is a no no (however Dax broke that rule twice!). And Worf's answer to the problem was to join some ultra extreme, right wing, Taliban style political group? Yeah that really helps a relationship. He needed to chill out on some blood wine.

 

[Tosk]

Jadzia can't kindly meet old friends? Where was the implication that Jadzia was going to sleep with Arandis, apart from in Worf's thick head?

 

[Paradise City]

It's both a horrible episode and a commendable episode. It's a frustrating episode. I do like seeing Worf out of his element, out of his Defiant/DS9 habitat and struggling badly. Dorn plays that very well. But the overall episode is teed up like a hokey sitcom and exposes Jadzia's erratic characterisation. Is she the reserved Vulcan-esque character or a party-animal with a loose tongue?

 

[Nyotarules]

It's both a horrible episode and a commendable episode. It's a frustrating episode. I do like seeing Worf out of his element, out of his Defiant/DS9 habitat and struggling badly. Dorn plays that very well. But the overall episode is teed up like a hokey sitcom and exposes Jadzia's erratic characterisation. Is she the reserved Vulcan-esque character or a party-animal with a loose tongue?

Neither,,, Curzon the lecherous party animal took over her body lol

 

[Bad Thoughts]

It's both a horrible episode and a commendable episode.

Behr was trying to make amends for Captain's Holiday, IMO, which got in the way of he story of Jadzia and Worf's compatibility. Some clever dialogue, but some dreadful scenes.

 

[Nyotarules]

Behr was trying to make amends for Captain's Holiday, IMO, which got in the way of he story of Jadzia and Worf's compatibility. Some clever dialogue, but some dreadful scenes.

I enjoyed 'Captain's holiday', Picard got laid! Go Picard!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I enjoyed 'Captain's holiday', Picard got laid! Go Picard!

Some people do. I don't: none of the pleasure planet episodes work unless something goes wrong, thus depends on the quality of that tension. Behr, himself, regretted writing Captain's Holiday because, one, it was vastly different in intent than the episode he initially imagined and, two, because it ended up he wrote an episode specifically to get Picard laid.

 

[Finn]

She should not spend time with people because Worf feels funny about it? Screw that noise.

This. Worf can be uptight about people.

 

[Paradise City]

Worf is a traditionalist. He was always gonna lose the rag, lol. On the one hand, he's perhaps familiar with Risa-type places on earth so he reckons he can tough it out but on the otherhand he's brought himself up on a regimented Klingon honour code, which is probably a caricature of how Klingons actually behave since a young Worf had to train himself up based on his reading of things from a distance. I actually quite like how Worf is written and acted here. Worf isn't a classic Klingon and his vulnerabilities are exposed whenever he's out of his element.

It's just the clash between the austere conservative and the hedonistic party-goer is a well worn trope. A little bit too well worn for me to fully like the episode.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

She should not spend time with people because Worf feels funny about it? Screw that noise.

It's not just about her spending time with people. It's about her spending time with ex-lovers while she's in a relationship. It's highly inappropriate to out to dinner with an ex-lover, and most people wouldn't do that while they're seeing someone else.

On top of that Worf says to everyone at the table that he and Dax have to speak about something, and that it is a private matter.
Dax, not respecting Worf's wish for this to remain private, tells them, "Worf is jealous."

Jadzia can't kindly meet old friends? Where was the implication that Jadzia was going to sleep with Arandis, apart from in Worf's thick head?

Again, it wasn't just an old friend. Arandis was an ex-lover of Curzon Dax, who found Jadzia Dax attractive, and looked like some light flirting was going at some point.

Worf would have to be stupid to think it was a good idea for his significant other to spend time with an ex-lover, whose job was implied to be a pleasure woman, on a pleasure planet that is comparable to a brothel.

Prior to this he saw his colleague Bashir becoming romantic with other pleasure women on the planet while Bashir was still in a relationship.

 

[Tosk]

Worf would have to be stupid to think it was a good idea for his significant other to spend time with an ex-lover, whose job was implied to be a pleasure woman, on a pleasure planet that is comparable to a brothel.

That's on Worf. His trust issues are his own. Jadzia can't be trusted with another person? Then Worf should have reconsidered the relationship if the only way to keep her faithful was to be with her at all times.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I really hate that episode, or any episode where it seems to me characters are acting below their usual intelligence or maturity level. I an see the 'Fundamentalist' message appealing somewhat to Worf but it feels like bad sitcom writing that he would actually join up with them just because he's irritated by Dax's hedonism. And you'd think a person with eight lifetimes of experience would lead Dax to handle Worf's jealousy better than acting out in rebellion and pushing his buttons.

Between Dax and Troi it's tough. The whole 'Opposites attract' thing works for Worf/Troi. Both complement each other's weaknesses. Dax and Worf oppose each other in some ways but have the same passion and aggression, which is a formula for bickering.

So, I guess Dax for a rapid fire of constant highs and lows, Troi for long term compatibility?

 

[kkt]

I found this episode frusterating. Worf could legitimately be offended by Jadzia's flirting with Arandis and spending lots of time with her. But his overreacting in a pouty huff and joining the Essentialists is out of character. The Essentialists commit hacking, sneaky attacks, not honorable. Worf as a security officer wouldn't be impressed, and certainly not as a rigidly honorable Klingon. The episode could have been some good scenes as Worf and Jadzia learn to accomodate each others' needs and find a workable compromise, instead Worf acts stupid and at the end decides to suck up Jadzia's disrespect because she looks good in a swim suit.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

That's on Worf. His trust issues are his own. Jadzia can't be trusted with another person? Then Worf should have reconsidered the relationship if the only way to keep her faithful was to be with her at all times.

You're responding to an argument that neither I, nor the character in the episode made.
I never said or implied that Jadzia can't be trusted with merely "another person" nor did I say that she should be with Worf at all times, or not be in the company of any males or females when he's not around. I don't think Worf said anything like that either.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

I really hate that episode, or any episode where it seems to me characters are acting below their usual intelligence or maturity level. I an see the 'Fundamentalist' message appealing somewhat to Worf but it feels like bad sitcom writing that he would actually join up with them just because he's irritated by Dax's hedonism.

Yeah. Once they staged the fake assault on the vacationers, Worf would have realized they were not all there.

And you'd think a person with eight lifetimes of experience would lead Dax to handle Worf's jealousy better than acting out in rebellion and pushing his buttons.

Not just that, but she seems very condescending towards him. She acts more like a big sister to him, than as an equal or a lover.

Worf as a security officer wouldn't be impressed, and certainly not as a rigidly honorable Klingon. The episode could have been some good scenes as Worf and Jadzia learn to accomodate each others' needs and find a workable compromise, instead Worf acts stupid and at the end decides to suck up Jadzia's disrespect because she looks good in a swim suit.

Exactly how I feel. Worf was out of character for becoming so enamored with them as the group kept becoming more and more disruptive. I mean, he even collaborates with them to disable the weather systems?? Doesn't sound like the straight laced Starfleet officer I remember from TNG.

 

[Mage]

She should not spend time with people because Worf feels funny about it? Screw that noise.

That's not it. Sure, she can and should see friends. However, when Worf feels uneasy about something, she shouldn't simply say 'suck it up and get over yourself', but talk about why he might feel unsafe about it, and what they can both do together to make it work.

 

[Tosk]

You're responding to an argument that neither I, nor the character in the episode made.

You'll have to spell it out for me then. What point were you making?

Worf would have to be stupid to think it was a good idea for his significant other to spend time with an ex-lover, whose job was implied to be a pleasure woman, on a pleasure planet that is comparable to a brothel.

Is it that Jadzia couldn't withstand the advances of a former lover? Or is it because she's a "professional"?

Sure, she can and should see friends.

You should tell Worf that. (He flat out tells Jadzia that she shouldn't be eating lunch with a former lover while she is with him. Controlling much?)