How many continuities are there in Trek Literature?

[Leto_II]

His version of Number One as the nameless commodore in command of the Yorktown has been featured in several of Byrne's works, including his photo comics.

And of course, recent Litverse novels have picked up and run with this general interpretation of Number One's future "backstory" -- in Legacies: Captain2Captain, we learn that she took command of the Yorktown at some point after she and Pike left the Enterprise (prior to 2267), and that she's being considered for promotion to the rank of commodore.

I'm wondering, depending on how Book III turns out, how her insubordinate actions in this trilogy are going to affect that possible promotion; in the Byrne comics she's been promoted by 2270, but Purgatory's Key could still end up going in a completely different direction than this.

Untold Voyages doesn't fit with the novels in its portrayal of post-TMP events such as Saavik's upbringing. (It might be possible to reconcile issue 1 of Untold with Ex Machina if you squint some, but I'm not sure.)

I think you can probably do it -- Untold Voyages #1 opens immediately (mere seconds) after the final moments of TMP where the Enterprise jumps to warp, and appears to cover a very brief span of time, and also overlaps a bit with Debt of Honor, showing the starship backtracking V'Ger's course to Earth near the Klingon border. Since Ex Machina opens around two weeks or so after TMP, it looks like there's some elbow-room there, from glancing at the first couple chapters in the novel.

I think I've heard people say that there's not really anything in Ashes of Eden that would prevent it from being part of the novelverse. That's purely second hand though, since I haven't read it myself.

Pretty much, yeah -- about the only bits that aren't "pure" Litverse are the bookending 24th Century prologue and epilogue, showing

Spoiler

James T. Kirk's remains getting stolen off of Veridian III by the Romulans, leading straight into the events of The Return.

Everything else 23rd Century in between fits in with the Litverse quite well.

 

[Jbarney]

Continuities within Continuities....

Bringing this back to the 80s era books, wasn't there some of them that supported the idea that Kirk had 2 FYMs prior to STMP? I know the dates for the FYM came well after the writers of the 80s came up with their novels, but I am pretty sure that several of those novels hint/suggest/or openly embrace 2 FYMs prior to contact with V'Ger.

Obviously this is something that has been done away with now, but it would be interesting to take a look for those references in the older books.

I know I have some notes on this somewhere....at some point I will have to check them. I am not talking about anything concrete, just references to passage of time, length of missions, etc.

 

[Leto_II]

^ Yeah, pretty much the bulk of the early '80s novel-continuity presupposed a second 5YM, pre-Motion Picture, even though the film itself clearly rules out such a thing even having taken place (Kirk's "my five years out there," not "my ten years out there").

 

[Christopher]

Continuities within Continuities....

Bringing this back to the 80s era books, wasn't there some of them that supported the idea that Kirk had 2 FYMs prior to STMP? I know the dates for the FYM came well after the writers of the 80s came up with their novels, but I am pretty sure that several of those novels hint/suggest/or openly embrace 2 FYMs prior to contact with V'Ger.

Not in as many words, no, but there are some books that ignore Kirk's "My five years out there" line from TMP and tell stories that are overtly set several years after TOS, yet still pre-TMP. For instance, The Romulan Way is eight years after "The Enterprise Incident," which would put The Wounded Sky/My Enemy, My Ally seven years after that episode, yet those books depict Uhura as a lieutenant and portray a version of the ship that's sort of a hybrid of TOS and TMP. Corona is also pre-TMP yet refers to TOS episodes as taking place a number of years before, and even suggests that Kirk is in his 40s. And Memory Prime is "a few years" after "The Lights of Zetar" but, again, pre-TMP in terms of character ranks, uniforms, etc.

So there was never a book that explicitly said "There was a second 5-year mission right after the one on TV and before TMP." But a number of books were pretty clearly assuming that the in-universe interval between TOS and TMP was close to the real-time interval, and that either there was a second 5-year mission or that the mission just ended up being longer than 5 years anyway.

After all, TOS never actually mentioned a 5-year mission duration anywhere except the opening narration. The only in-story references to a 5-year mission duration are in TMP, "Q2," Into Darkness, and Beyond. And it's a safe bet that if TOS had lasted to a sixth season, they would've just ignored the opening narration and continued the mission without explanation (just as Run for Your Life spent 3 years telling the story of a man with 18 months left to live, and M*A*S*H spent 11 years depicting a war that lasted only 3). So maybe those novelists were doing much the same, just ignoring the duration mentioned in the main titles and letting the mission go on as long as they needed it to. Maybe they were thinking of it as a "second 5-year mission," but none of them ever actually said so in print.

 

[Jbarney]

Sorry if this is covered and in another thread, but have any of the fan produced efforts been hinted at/mentioned by any of the writers?

 

[Jinn]

Sorry if this is covered and in another thread, but have any of the fan produced efforts been hinted at/mentioned by any of the writers?

This sounds like the origin story of Voyager: "Threshold"

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sorry if this is covered and in another thread, but have any of the fan produced efforts been hinted at/mentioned by any of the writers?

If by "fan produced efforts" you can count Strange New Worlds? T'Rama, the mother of Sarek, appeared first in a SNW story (John Takis' "A Girl For Every Star") and has now 'graduated' into the litverse, by virtue of her appearances in the Rise of the Federation series.

I'm sure there are others, but that one definitely springs to mind.

 

[Idran]

But if by "fan produced efforts" you mean any sort of fan project outside CBS licensing, then not in any way, because (among other things) authors take effort to avoid those projects to prevent any future plagiarism claims.

If by "fan produced efforts" you can count Strange New Worlds? T'Rama, the mother of Sarek, appeared first in a SNW story (John Takis' "A Girl For Every Star") and has now 'graduated' into the litverse, by virtue of her appearances in the Rise of the Federation series.

I'm sure there are others, but that one definitely springs to mind.

There were a couple DTI-themed SNW entries that were referenced in that series too, I know.

Actually, you know, now this makes me curious about a related question. Have any Pocket novels ever referenced the non-novelization Bantam works?

 

[Christopher]

Actually, you know, now this makes me curious about a related question. Have any Pocket novels ever referenced the non-novelization Bantam works?

The Pocket novels by Sondra Marshak & Myrna Culbreath referred to the events of their own Phoenix novels from Bantam. They're the only authors who wrote original novels for both publishers (though David Gerrold wrote the "Encounter at Farpoint" novelization for Pocket).

My Live by the Code makes a passing reference to a 22nd-century Captain La Forge, which is meant as a nod to Captain George La Forge of the USS Detroit in David Gerrold's The Galactic Whirlpool -- though of course that's just an homage, not a "that entire novel must be counted in the modern novelverse" thing, since it obviously can't be given the enormously different 21st-century history it posits. (Both that character and Geordi La Forge were named in honor of a disabled Trek fan named George La Forge.)

Other than those, I can't think of any Bantam nods in Pocket Trek.

 

[Idran]

My Live by the Code makes a passing reference to a 22nd-century Captain La Forge, which is meant as a nod to Captain George La Forge of the USS Detroit in David Gerrold's The Galactic Whirlpool -- though of course that's just an homage, not a "that entire novel must be counted in the modern novelverse" thing, since it obviously can't be given the enormously different 21st-century history it posits. (Both that character and Geordi La Forge were named in honor of a disabled Trek fan named George La Forge.)

Oh, huh, I thought that was just because of the Starfleet family thing, didn't realize it was specifically a shout out to Galactic Whirlpool. Neat!

 

[Christopher]

Oh, huh, I thought that was just because of the Starfleet family thing, didn't realize it was specifically a shout out to Galactic Whirlpool. Neat!

That's why I felt it was doable -- because it had an interpretation that fit perfectly within existing continuity, given what we know about the La Forge family history in Starfleet. So it works both ways.

 

[Therin of Andor]

If by "fan produced efforts" you can count Strange New Worlds? T'Rama, the mother of Sarek, appeared first in a SNW story (John Takis' "A Girl For Every Star") and has now 'graduated' into the litverse, by virtue of her appearances in the Rise of the Federation series.
I'm sure there are others, but that one definitely springs to mind.

How about Therin Park (and New Therin Park) being named for Senator Therin of "Starship Exeter: The Savage Empire" (and Shantherin th'Clane of "Ex Machina")?

I created Therin in 1980, and he also featured in fanfilm parodies in Australia, "Sale of the 23rd Century" (1985-86) and "Perfect Botch" (1987).

 

[Idran]

How about Therin Park (and New Therin Park) being named for Senator Therin of "Starship Exeter: The Savage Empire" (and Shantherin th'Clane of "Ex Machina")?

I created Therin in 1980, and he also featured in fanfilm parodies in Australia, "Sale of the 23rd Century" (1985-86) and "Perfect Botch" (1987).

Aren't they named for you rather than the specific character you created, even if the reason you go by that name is because of the character you created? That is, I thought they reference it not because of your character in that fanfilm, but because you as a real person go by that name on the internet.

Like how Athens, Georgia isn't named in honor of Athena but in honor of Athens, Greece, even if that's why Athens, Greece has that name.

Edit: If this is entirely wrong, my apologies; I just always thought it was about recognizing you yourself.

 

[Christopher]

I didn't have any knowledge of the fan-film origins of Therin's name when I created Shantherin th'Clane. It was just a nod to that guy from the TrekBBS.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Aren't they named for you rather than the specific character you created, even if the reason you go by that name is because of the character you created? That is, I thought they reference it not because of your character in that fanfilm, but because you as a real person go by that name on the internet.

Perhaps a combination of all? I've been Therin of Andor since 1980, and used the character in fanzine stories and fanfilms throughout the 80s and 90s. Heather Jarman named Therin Park for me in "Andor: Paradigm" (2004), probably not knowing about the character's onscreen appearance in "The Savage Empire" in 2002 (a previously unknown Senator relative). Since then, references to the two parks in other novels have cumulatively connected them to the TMP character named for me in the novel "Ex Machina".

And an Andorian warship, the Therin, in "Fallen Gods". But Michael A Martin was probably referencing Therin Park and th'Clane, not me or my "Savage Empire" appearance. But who knows?

 

[Enterprise1701]

Now we just need to see the mirror universe and Kelvin timeline versions of Shantherin th'Clane!

 

[Vnix]

I've been wondering btw, does the STO book count as part of the novelverse or does it fall into its own category?

 

[Jinn]

I've been wondering btw, does the STO book count as part of the novelverse or does it fall into its own category?

The Needs of the Many is part of the STO continuity.

 

[Vnix]

That

The Needs of the Many is part of the STO continuity.

That I get, but is it also novel continuity, or rather how does the litverse react towards the problems of 2387 onwards.

 

[Christopher]

That I get, but is it also novel continuity,

STO is not compatible with the novel continuity. It's borrowed a few bits and pieces from the novel continuity, but it contradicts the novels in many respects -- the timing and circumstances of Bajor joining the Federation and Ro Laren being pardoned, the manner in which Data was resurrected, the nature of species like the Iconians and Species 8472, and numerous other things. There is no way to reconcile the two. The Needs of the Many was created to be a promotional tie-in to STO, and was thus aimed at the STO audience, people unfamiliar with the novelverse; so it was not intended to have any connection to the novelverse (beyond a brief Easter-egg in-joke in one chapter).

or rather how does the litverse react towards the problems of 2387 onwards.

It hasn't, yet. The novel continuity has only reached 2386.