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LGBTQIA characters and Bechdel test

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Attack verbally? I would like the main characters to not be all of the same mind set and disagree on various social and philosophic issue.
Neither do I. But that was in response to the suggestion that if the series introduced a gay character, there should be an anti-gay character. That isn't a political debate, it's being a bigot.

Wouldn't mind is some of the main characters just plain didn't like each other.
Neither do I. But I'd rather it be for reasons that lead to character development and interesting storylines, not simplistic black and white reasoning.
 
In order for there to be a regular character who is a bigot, they would have to be a villain. You can't have a "sympathetic" bigot.
 
In order for there to be a regular character who is a bigot, they would have to be a villain. You can't have a "sympathetic" bigot.
Of course you can have a "sympathetic" bigot. Easier said than done, but it simply requires writing a multidimensional character. Just take a look at, oh, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner, to find several sympathetic characters who first exhibit bigotry and who then grow to rethink their positions over the course of the evening.

Whether a character who has bigoted tendencies can also be sympathetic is a wholly separate question from whether such a character should be a regular. Not all Star Trek regulars are either villains or crewmen. Quark comes to mind as a regular who was neither. Plus, assuming that we are talking about a show with genuine character arcs, we don't need to presume that some character traits won't change over time.

Confining the discussion to crew personnel, granted it would be harder to pull off. On TOS, although he was not a regular, Mister Stiles exhibited bigotry against Mister Spock in "Balance of Terror," which simply goes to show that at that point (in the development of the show and/or in the history of Starfleet, whichever way you want to look at it) bigoted tendencies did not preclude someone from graduating from Starfleet Academy and getting top-drawer postings as a commissioned officer in Starfleet.

To pull it off, it would require, at least, a top-notch group of writers, showrunners willing to handle controversy, and the belief by the showrunners that it wouldn't negatively harm viewership. Not saying that's what they should necessarily do, although the greatest shows of television often didn't play it safe.
 
Of course you can have a "sympathetic" bigot. Easier said than done, but it simply requires writing a multidimensional character. Just take a look at, oh, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner, to find several sympathetic characters who first exhibit bigotry and who then grow to rethink their positions over the course of the evening.

Whether a character who has bigoted tendencies can also be sympathetic is a wholly separate question from whether such a character should be a regular. Not all Star Trek regulars are either villains or crewmen. Quark comes to mind as a regular who was neither. Plus, assuming that we are talking about a show with genuine character arcs, we don't need to presume that some character traits won't change over time.

Confining the discussion to crew personnel, granted it would be harder to pull off. On TOS, although he was not a regular, Mister Stiles exhibited bigotry against Mister Spock in "Balance of Terror," which simply goes to show that at that point (in the development of the show and/or in the history of Starfleet, whichever way you want to look at it) bigoted tendencies did not preclude someone from graduating from Starfleet Academy and getting top-drawer postings as a commissioned officer in Starfleet.

To pull it off, it would require, at least, a top-notch group of writers, showrunners willing to handle controversy, and the belief by the showrunners that it wouldn't negatively harm viewership. Not saying that's what they should necessarily do, although the greatest shows of television often didn't play it safe.
Nah. ST fans would never go for a supposedly sympathetic main cast character in ST being a bigot toward homosexuals. Besides, it would be too much of an anachronism.
 
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Don't be shy. McCoy wasn't a bigot because he and Spock were really friends who deeply respected each other but fought like brothers.
Overall, I agree with that assessment. This is an example of a complex relationship. There were certain episodes, however, in which I think that the writers struck the wrong balance, and that was a product of the context of 1960s television and its baggage as much as anything else. Forgiving that, the obvious intent is that they really are friends who irritate each other. That was established as clearly as it could be with a character (Spock) who could never allow himself to say openly how he really felt.
 
Overall, I agree with that assessment. This is an example of a complex relationship. There were certain episodes, however, in which I think that the writers struck the wrong balance, and that was a product of the context of 1960s television and its baggage as much as anything else. Forgiving that, the obvious intent is that they really are friends who irritate each other. That was established as clearly as it could be with a character (Spock) who could never allow himself to say openly how he really felt.
Absolutely. I think the McCoy flying off the handle and Spock being stoic interplay was meant as part comic relief part drama. Sometimes, McCoy did seem a bit harsh and Spock a bit austere.
 
I did not interpret his statement as being exclusionary.



Alden, the comms officer in The Cage, was black (though I don't recall him doing much, he was present.)

Uhura's race was not remarkable in the show's universe or stories, and I think that is Robert Maxwell's & Starker's point. LGBT characters should be present and prominent, but their queerness should be incidental to the story, not their defining trait or a major plot point.

Exactly. Whatever the reasons behind Nichelle's casting once she was on the show her ethnicity was practically never referenced, same with Takei. You can query how she was treated as a woman on the show but any sexism was at least colour blind.
 
also a disabled character would be nice, and a muslim woman as captain - why not.
Well, TNG showed a blind helmsman who became chief engineer. Captain Pike was in a wheelchair in most of his appearances. DS9's "Melora" featured a race from a low-gravity planet who needed a wheelchair or crutches to move in "standard" Federation gravity environments. In the Mirror Universe episodes of DS9, Intendant Kira was very "liberal" with her romantic affections, without regard to race or gender. Also, in this last movie, Captain Kirk's boss, Commodore Paris, was an Iranian woman. You've already seen all the things you're wishing for.

Whatever the reasons behind Nichelle's casting once she was on the show her ethnicity was practically never referenced, same with Takei. You can query how she was treated as a woman on the show but any sexism was at least colour blind.
The episode with the ghost of Abraham Lincoln made a point of referencing her race, just for them to point out that nobody cares about skin color in the future (something President Obama is still trying to convince the country of 50 years later).
 
In the Mirror Universe episodes of DS9, Intendant Kira was very "liberal" with her romantic affections, without regard to race or gender.

To be fair the DS9 mirror universe was a mess in that regard. The characters, Kira included, were mostly supposed to be egotistical, dare I say "evil", versions of their standard universe personalities.
And for some inexplicable reason the writers thought the best way to show how different the mirror versions are, was to give them a crazier sex drive.

That is some sex-negative bullshit right there because it implies that a sex drive (and in Kira's case a bisexual desire) is associated only with the mean mirror versions of characters. The writers totally embraced the puritan nonsense notion that sex is bad and that it makes total sense to make "intense sexual desire" a defining character trait for their "evil mirror universe" personas.

I'm so tired of the "evil is sexy" bullshit. I wish they'd just shown more sexual desire from the perfectly good people in DS9 and not acted like "sex" and "egotism" are somewhat related.

Here's news: Good people love sex, too. Show it.
 
Well, TNG showed a blind helmsman who became chief engineer. Captain Pike was in a wheelchair in most of his appearances. DS9's "Melora" featured a race from a low-gravity planet who needed a wheelchair or crutches to move in "standard" Federation gravity environments. In the Mirror Universe episodes of DS9, Intendant Kira was very "liberal" with her romantic affections, without regard to race or gender. Also, in this last movie, Captain Kirk's boss, Commodore Paris, was an Iranian woman. You've already seen all the things you're wishing for.
Also Nog lost a leg in DS9 and there was an entire episode about his dealing with the loss and how others reacted to it.
 
Neither do I. But that was in response to the suggestion that if the series introduced a gay character, there should be an anti-gay character. That isn't a political debate, it's being a bigot.

Neither do I. But I'd rather it be for reasons that lead to character development and interesting storylines, not simplistic black and white reasoning.
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