Religion and Star Trek

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

If that's the case, then atheists need to stop telling me what it means to be agnostic! I definitely reject the binary choice idea. What passes for my belief system is based around not making a choice!

For me as an atheist it's not about choice either.
In fact choosing to believe is an impossibility for me.
I couldn't believe it even if I wanted to.
Believing something requires me to be convinced.
I can not choose to ignore information I have, just as I can not choose to not be able to read anymore.

I can choose however to question information and test it to be true as best as I can.
Belief and disbelief is merely a necessary result from that.

I know that you see 3 states essentially.
To hold something as true, untrue or undetermined, right?
But only holding something true makes you a believer, can you agree to that?
Now if holding something untrue or indetermined does not make you a believer, what does that leave except an unbeliever?
In the case of the god claim, not being a theist just leaves being an atheist, as in not being convinced a god exists no matter if you are willing to keep testing the god hypothesis further or not.

I really don't understand where this notion cones from that being an atheist only means being convinced that no god exists as it literally just means not believing the positive claim.

 

[Greg Cox]

OTOH, if you're Jewish, you may have issues dealing with vampires (50:10):

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Polanski's FEARLESS VAMPIRE KILLERS did a similar joke back in 1967. A buxom maiden holds up a cross to ward off a vampire.

"Oy vey," he says. "You've got the wrong vampire!"

 

[The Old Mixer]

It is a binary question, there is no middle ground to take.

For me as an atheist it's not about choice either.

This is just quibbling over semantics because I used the phrase "choice". Quibbling over semantics makes me want to shoot myself.

Now if holding something untrue or indetermined does not make you a believer, what does that leave except an unbeliever?

What I see here is, "if you're not one of them, then that makes you one of us". I say, no, I'm not one of you, either. That's my belief...or choice...or answer...or whatever it needs to be called.

I really don't understand where this notion cones from that being an atheist only means being convinced that no god exists

That's something that's been asserted by a number of posters in this thread, and is apparently the literal definition.

1. : one who believes that there is no deity

Don't blame me for that, I'm the one they were shooting down.

Also from the same source:

Many people are interested in distinguishing between the words agnostic and atheist. The difference is quite simple: atheist refers to someone who believes that there is no god (or gods), and agnostic refers to someone who doesn’t know whether there is a god, or even if such a thing is knowable.

So if semantics is your thing...semantically, there's a difference between what you say you are and what I say I am.

 

[The Wormhole]

I always found it odd that the only people allowed to have religious beliefs in TNG and post era were alien or "exotic" cultures.

There are mentions to religious humans in the 24th century. Native Americans still practice their spiritual beliefs. According to Data there are enough Hindus aboard the Enterprise that Hindu holidays are observed aboard ship. Kasidy Yates comes from a Christian family. And that's just off the top of my head.

 

[stardream]

Phlox attended Mass in St. Peter's Square.

 

[TwoJakes]

Which could mean anything from it's just something (play acting) for extraterrestial tourists, through Catholicism being alive and well. And perhaps growing and spreading among alien species.

 

[DeepSpaceYorks]

Christianity is an evangelical religion so it makes sense that the first chance they got Christians would have been out there among the stars spreading the 'good news' and telling other races that their belief systems were wrong.

 

[JeffinOakland]

Christianity is an evangelical religion so it makes sense that the first chance they got Christians would have been out there among the stars spreading the 'good news' and telling other races that their belief systems were wrong.

But there is no evidence in any of ST that 1) Christianity is still an evangelical religion or that 2) proselytizing is going on.

 

[The Wormhole]

Which could mean anything from it's just something (play acting) for extraterrestial tourists, through Catholicism being alive and well. And perhaps growing and spreading among alien species.

Given the context in which it was mentioned, Phlox discussing all the religions he observed and partook in their services while in Earth, including a Vulcan religious service in their embassy, the implication is that religions are still being practiced on Earth in the 22nd century, at least.

 

[DeepSpaceYorks]

But there is no evidence in any of ST that 1) Christianity is still an evangelical religion or that 2) proselytizing is going on.

Good points and I think it points to the hypothesis that there never was a 'joined up' idea about religion in the future beyond 'oh, we don't have that anymore'.

 

[JeffinOakland]

Good points and I think it points to the hypothesis that there never was a 'joined up' idea about religion in the future beyond 'oh, we don't have that anymore'.

That's what happens when you start with vague, undefined outlines and have to define as you go along.

 

[jaime]

A sliding scale, with a infinite number of unique positions and possibilities.Basically, a belief that there is no God, agnostics are neutral on the subject.

Less Picard is a atheist, and more he has a specific problem with the Minitaken's former belief system. Based of the report that he read.

Also that Picard knows that actually witnessing the 'miracles' of the Picard is likely to push into a belief system that he knows to be untrue. It leaves Picard's actual religious views, or views on religion in general, unstated. Even the Ardra incident leaves it in the air, as she is very specific in those she emulates, and also by emulating so many figures, cannot be a 'one true' figure. Given Picard's background in archaeology, he could also be of the opinion that certain representations are nothing more than aspects of specific cultures, without actually discounting the things those symbols represent.
He is on a first name basis with Q don't forget. He would certainly know 'there are more things in heaven and earth' too.
Picard's beliefs and separately his cultural background, are somewhat unknown.

 

[jaime]

That's what happens when you start with vague, undefined outlines and have to define as you go along.

And then muddy the waters still further with a chapel on board ship, no sign of a chaplain, then throw-in the coda to bread and circuses. That's before we get to McCoy in the movies dancing between being a religious stereotype and interpreting his words in every direction. Then there's Star Trek V....and was Keiko religion shown? Miles?

 

[stardream]

Didn't Miles and Keiko have a secular wedding... with hints of Buddhism thrown in????? I don't think it was a religious ceremony.

 

[JeffinOakland]

I love all things Star Trek but let's be honest : many of the ideas in ST are introduced the same way a clumsy nerd "introduces" himself by falling down a flight of stairs, miraculously landing unhurt on his feet and then loudly declaring, "I meant to do that!"

 

[jaime]

Didn't Miles and Keiko have a secular wedding... with hints of Buddhism thrown in????? I don't think it was a religious ceremony.

I think they are one of those grey areas. Could have been hints of shinto, and allowing for Hollywood stereotypes a lot of of culturally Irish things are tied into one religion or another. But it's left open...certainly anyone seeing their own cultures reflected in those characters would also have imagined the religious aspects of the culture.
Doctor Bashirs cultural heritage is even more interesting, but not religiously speaking, as that's not really presented.

 

[VulcanMindBlown]

Errrmm... I guess the writers of Science Fiction just don't want to answer the subject to avoid losing fans in a multi-cultural, global society.

I'm sure that everybody involved wanted Chakotay to be a very dynamic character and all of the ingredients are, in fact, there. He's a former maquis, he undergoes these Vision Quests, he's a natural leader and to start with, at least, he was in a relationship with a volatile woman. The Vision Quests though, was probably the character trait that stood out the most. There's a sense of mystery, where a hinge to other stories might find itself - seemingly, unexpectedly. Even Braga knows the quote from Hamlet, "There is more in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy" ... and its portent.

Yes, it just seemed like all the explanations for religious experiences are by aliens. Sure, that's a distinct possibility in real life, but does it explain everything?

In ST's future, Human religion isn't dead, it's just less popular and deemphasized and is no longer a central aspect of human culture. The general attitude seems to have shifted from encouraging the religious majority to tolerate the nonreligious minority to encouraging the nonreligious majority to tolerate the religious minority, The roles have changed as to who is the minority and who is expected to do the tolerating.

Yeah, I was just getting that from the show. It's true that Secularism and Leftism is more common nowadays, especially among millenials like myself.

I am a gay man who is also a Christian Protestant. I also live in an area which would not accept me, because they are bigoted Southerners.

My philosophy is live and let live. If people do not realize I am a Christian by my actions, then my words to them about my faith would mean nothing.

Star Trek should find some way to include faith more than it does. Just as I hope ST will, one day, include gay characters positively. I enjoy watching DS9 episodes (did I just say that?) which depict those of faith as rational, professional beings.

Yes, Christ preached love and not condemnation for this life. No matter what you believe, if you go all "Militant Atheist" or "Bible Thumper" no matter what you think God, or religious text says, or even how right you are (in Atheism) that doesn't give you the right to be a jerk about it when someone else doesn't want to hear it.

I think there's a potential for constructive discussion here without needing to relegate the thread to Miscellaneous or TNZ...but in order to keep it civil enough to stay here, I'd recommend not side-swiping controversial issues that aren't part of the main topic. (Not to mention that the multi-sentence double parenthetical isn't doing your sentence any favors in the first place.)

Sorry, was it my stance or was it that you didn't like me to give examples? I didn't mean to start a discussion whether people are born, choose, or are conditioned, but to call it a "behavior" is rational, because for instance, people eat and it is natural for them, but through bad experiences they can be conditioned to not like (certain usually) food.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Sorry, was it my stance or was it that you didn't like me to give examples?

It was my wanting to give the thread a chance here, even though discussions of topics like politics and religion are usually kept in Miscellaneous or The Neutral Zone. It wasn't helping the thread to compound the issue by going off on a controversial tangent that was bound to invite completely off-topic arguments (as it did).

 

[BillJ]

Christianity is an evangelical religion so it makes sense that the first chance they got Christians would have been out there among the stars spreading the 'good news' and telling other races that their belief systems were wrong.

Another reason for aliens to hate us!

 

[The Old Mixer]

But this is Star Trek...humans would never venture out into the stars to tell people that their belief systems were wrong or preach about their own superiority...oh, wait....