Did Janeway Kill Tuvix?

[Guy Gardener]

I figured out a long time ago, that Tuvix should have erased the Doctor and the research into his condition.

Although, is it murder to delete a hologram who thinks he's like people?

It's obviously self defence, but in one of these instant trials Janeway holds in her imagination, would she see it that way?

 

[hux]

Oh come on, that's not remotely analogous.

But it does (amusingly) highlight that what we consider "life" to be isn't always a straightforward thing. Just because it walks, talks and makes a sad face doesn't mean it is.

If you destroy the doctor, have you murdered?

 

[Guy Gardener]

It wasn't his life and it wasn't taken. It was restored to its former correct state.

She had to rekill Tuvok and Neelix who were living inside Tuvix.

Janeway killed three people to bring back two.

The numbers are bad, the numbers are bad.

 

[hux]

It was a fake-out kill.

"I'm gonna kill you!! Just kidding, you're back in the room."

 

[Tosk]

It wasn't his life, it was Tuvok's and Neelix's life.

Then the decision to end it should have been theirs.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tuvix should have made demands.

He was holding those two boys hostage.

"Neelix is not coming back unless Kes actually sleeps with him. It's been three years almost, a jokes a joke. You're not sending me to heaven unless you send the kitchenrat to paradise. Chakotay on the other hand just wants an extra helping of pudding with supper every night."

 

[hux]

Then the decision to end it should have been theirs.

That he eventually calmed down and sat patiently and acceptingly could be construed as exactly that. A moment of clarity where their wishes influenced the actions of Tuvix.

Secondly, they were free to return to their former Tuvix state... but obviously chose not to.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If they remember being Tuvix, which maybe they didn't?

When Tuvok started going space crazy after year 7 in the original timeline, did he consider merging with a another crewman until he could get a healing meld back home?

Hell, he chose degenerative insanity over long term stasis.

Tuvok shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for himself.

 

[DonIago]

If one is going to argue that Tuvix wasn't a lifeform, I think a serious blow is being dealt to any argument that Data, Moriarty, The Doctor, and possibly any unplanned children have any right to self-determination.

If a mother died giving birth to a child she didn't want to have or that wasn't planned, and she could be healed by killing the baby (organ transplant, let's say...it's a hypothetical scenario), would it be "right" to kill the baby to restore the mother to life?

If I were Tuvix and was told that at any instant I might be summarily executed to restore to life two people who I was arguably best qualified to state would not wish to be restored at the expense of my own life (and how I wish the episode had shown -that-), I would likely ask to be placed in stasis. If I'm a lab experiment, treat me like one. To allow me the illusion of life with no true freedoms is cruel not just to me but to anyone who places any value upon my existence.

I can't imagine that things would have been so cut-and-dried for Our Heroes if they'd been in contact with the Federation, and it scares me to think that Janeway took this level of Authority upon herself without even the pretense of a formal hearing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

B'Elanna was a transporter clone since early season one.

No one cared.

When the Tom tried to marry her, the ships library computer should have refused the paperwork, but it didn't spit it out, laughing at all.

Janeway was Tuvixed in Relativity.

After that point she's actually 4 or 5 Janeways shoe horned into one tracksuit.

No one seems to care about the 5 Kathryrn Janeways being held prisoner in the mind that is pretending to be the human being captaining Voyager.

 

[MacLeod]

An execution
Manslaughter
Murder
Death by...
All depends on the circumstances

Well in the case of the UFP their is only one crime which could warrant the Death Penalty violation of General Order 7. Which wasn't the case in Tuvix

Manslaughter is usually causing the accidental death of someone again not the case in Tuvix

 

[Tosk]

That he eventually calmed down and sat patiently and acceptingly could be construed as exactly that. A moment of clarity where their wishes influenced the actions of Tuvix.

And it could also be construed as him realizing he was done for and took it with dignity.

"Each of you is going to have to live with this, and I'm sorry for that, for you are all good, good people. My colleagues, my friends, I forgive you."

Jokes on him, none of them ever thought about him again.

 

[hux]

If one is going to argue that Tuvix wasn't a lifeform, I think a serious blow is being dealt to any argument that Data, Moriarty, The Doctor,

Well none of them are life-forms. Moriarty and the Doctor aren't eve convincingly sapient. Data is a harder call.

and possibly any unplanned children have any right to self-determination. If a mother died giving birth to a child she didn't want to have or that wasn't planned, and she could be healed by killing the baby (organ transplant, let's say...it's a hypothetical scenario), would it be "right" to kill the baby to restore the mother to life?

The unborn children analogy is emotional blackmail and not really applicable anyway. Tuvix needs Tuvok and Neelix to exist to ensure his own existence. The baby doesn't need it's mother. Additionally, everything that give Tuvix existence... continues to exist in the form of Tuvok and Neelix whereas the baby just dies.

 

[stardream]

And it could also be construed as him realizing he was done for and took it with dignity.

"Each of you is going to have to live with this, and I'm sorry for that, for you are all good, good people. My colleagues, my friends, I forgive you."

Jokes on him, none of them ever thought about him again.

I asked in another thread about the crew holding a memorial service for him or talking about the good times they had with him while in the mess hall...while Neelix over there within earshot.

That does not mean he was NOT a real sentient being if they did not (re: the original baby Naomi) but did they consider him as being 'really' gone?

 

[DonIago]

Well none of them are life-forms. Moriarty and the Doctor aren't eve convincingly sapient. Data is a harder call.

Fair enough, though I disagree. And even if they aren't necessarily life-forms, I personally feel it's better to err on the side of caution and give them the rights and privileges associated with life-forms than to err in the other direction.

The unborn children analogy is emotional blackmail and not really applicable anyway. Tuvix needs Tuvok and Neelix to exist to ensure his own existence. The baby doesn't need it's mother. Additionally, everything that give Tuvix existence... continues to exist in the form of Tuvok and Neelix whereas the baby just dies.

Calling the analogy emotional blackmail comes across as dodging rather than addressing it.
Everything that gave Tuvix existence may have initially derived from Tuvok and Neelix, but, particularly if they don't remember their time as Tuvix (and it's not clear that they do), I believe something was lost when they were separated. Our Heroes do remark at times during the episode that Tuvix is proving to be more than the mere sum of his parts.

But I don't really want to go in circles on this either, and I guess we've both made our perspectives clear at this point.

 

[apollo1984]

At the end of that episode Tuvix was neither Tuvok or Neelix and was in essence a unique individual and should have been treated as such, it was actually a gamble to try and separate them and you could have lost all 3 of them.

 

[MacLeod]

It's so easy to justify harming others if you think they are less than you. Genocide, slavery etc...

 

[hux]

It's so easy to justify harming others if you think they are less than you. Genocide, slavery etc...

Turning Siri off is not harming her.

 

[Longinus]

@hux, you are being intentionally obtuse. Tuvix was a living creature with a complex biological brain. He obviously was a sentient and sapient being.

 

[Lynx]

No!
She restored Tuvok and Neelix back to normal.